Situational Ethics and the Impact on Marketing with Rick Jordan

In this episode, host Eric Dickmann interviews Rick Jordan. Rick is the CEO and Founder of ReachOut Technology and has become a nationally recognized voice on cybersecurity, business, and ethics. 12 years ago, Rick was laid off, broke, and in foreclosure with newborn twins. During the middle of the recession, Rick founded a multimillion-dollar company and personally has a burning passion to help other companies see a meaningful transformation in their business lives and relationships.

Rick is a featured speaker, a national guest expert, host of the podcast All In with Rick Jordan, and a bestselling author of a book entitled "Situational Ethics." He also recently starred in an Amazon Prime documentary entitled "Cybercrime" and its upcoming sequel "Uncovering the Dark Web".

Eric Dickmann can be found on Twitter @EDickmann and on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/edickmann

Rick Jordan can be found on social media @MrRickJordan (Twitter and Instagram) or his website Rick Jordan

If you'd like to contact us with feedback or guest inquiries, please visit: https://fiveechelon.com/the-virtual-cmo-podcast/

For more information about Virtual CMO strategic marketing consulting services, visit The Five Echelon Group at https://fiveechelon.com

Transcript

 **Please note, this transcript was generated by an artificial intelligence engine. It is intended only as a rough transcript and there may be some grammatical, spelling or transcription errors.

Eric Dickmann: 0:08

Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm your host, Eric Dickmann. The Virtual CMO is a podcast designed for marketing professionals at small and midsize businesses. Our goal is to share strategies and tactics from fellow marketing professionals that you can use to impact the trajectory of your company's marketing. Our primary mission is to pass along meaningful insight on topics of interest to marketing professionals. If you have questions, there's a link in the show notes to provide feedback or guest inquiries. We'd love to hear from you. And as always, we appreciate those five-star reviews on Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show with that. Let's dive into another conversation with The Virtual CMO. Today, I'm excited to welcome Rick Jordan to the show. Rick is a CEO and founder of reach out Technology and has become a nationally recognized voice on cybersecurity business and ethics. 12 years ago, Rick was laid off, broke, and in foreclosure with newborn twins. This is when in the middle of the recession, he founded a multimillion-dollar company and Rick has a burning passion to help other companies see a meaningful transformation in their business lives and relationships. He's a featured speaker, a national guest expert. He's the host of the podcast "All in with Rick Jordan". A bestselling author of a book entitled "Situational Ethics". And he stared in an Amazon prime documentary entitled "Cybercrime" and its upcoming sequel "Uncovering the Dark Web". I'm excited to have Rick on the show today. Rick Jordan. Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm so glad you could join us here today.
Rick Jordan: 1:48

Eric, my man. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. I'm grateful.
Eric Dickmann: 1:51

We are doing an audio podcast today, but you are of course, in your signature purple. So I wanted to find out where did your affinity for the color purple comes from?
Rick Jordan: 2:01

Man. It's something that started when I was young. And you know, when I was growing up, I've always loved purple since I was maybe a toddler. I don't know why, but I found out why later on in life. But as I was growing through the years, you know, you get into the teenage years is a dude, you know, who's playing sports and it's like, you know, maybe purple's not supposed to be my thing is you see everything else. But then I got over that real fast man. And, It came down to what's on my inside is what I like to express on the outside. And purple is a color of luxury. It's a color of royalty. It's also the color of unity. Those three things are really something that they kind of define who I am. And I love the project that, because I think what you wear on the outside should be a reflection of really what's on your inside.
Eric Dickmann: 2:40

I think that's great. And you know, this is a podcast about marketing primarily and what you do with your colors and the way you put that out there, it really creates a very strong brand. And I think that's so important for people, whether you've got a personal brand or corporate brand, that consistency is so important. And I certainly see that in your own brand. That's obviously been a very conscious decision.
Rick Jordan: 3:03

Well, thanks, my man. Yeah, it sure has been, you know, even down to, you know, we have a brand guide, of course, for "All In with Rick Jordan" and everybody does for the most part, but it even goes down to just a couple of weeks ago. We even created a font guide as a subset within that, just so there's consistency, even across our pieces that we use, man. Cause it, it is important. And whenever I see. I come from a creative background anyways, even though, you know, I have a cybersecurity business, which is very linear, I have given to the human aspect, the psychology aspect of cybersecurity. And, but my background, man, I mean, I've been in music, you know, as a semi-pro in churches and everything I've played in front of thousands. My brain's very creative. So when I see something like that, that's a disconnect somewhere. It doesn't make sense because I start to think of those that are looking at it. And now if something doesn't match up, especially when it comes to sales or even getting across your message if there's Not unity and consistency in your brand guide, even down to your fonts and your logo usage and the size it's going to kill conversions. It's also going to kill people from hearing your message.
Eric Dickmann: 4:03

Now, I know you mentioned that your music background and you were also a pastor, is that correct?
Rick Jordan: 4:08

Yeah, right on my man. That was something that was interesting. I grew up in a very very spiritual-religious if you want to call it setting non-denominational. And my parents dove into the church, but my dad had a music degree. That's what his education was in. I mean, he was a band teacher back in junior high and high school back in the day. And he would lead the music in a small church that I grew up in. And then as soon as it was possible, I remember there was a drummer that went away, you know, an adult drummer, but I was 11 years old. And he's like, yeah, my son is going to play. And I remember that. And saying, what are you talking about? He's only 11. He was like, just wait, just get on there. You know, but I mean, it's not like I was amazing. I still remember him. And this is a member that I chased squirrels, by the way. I hope that's okay. But I remember. If I were to get offbeat, you know, just slow down or rush a little bit. I remember him walking over to the top of the piano and like banging his head just on the top of the piano, just in the consistent. Metronomic beats just to keep me on track, but it was great, it was a great influence and a great learning experience. Then I picked up the guitar. Yeah. I'd say I learned how to play guitar when I was listening to Metallica. And that's where I really found my ear. Yeah, cause
Eric Dickmann: 5:15

you're a headbanger. Huh?
Rick Jordan: 5:17

Yeah, I was, yeah, exactly. But I mean, I, that was like the early nineties, you know, it was when I was getting into my teenage years and that's when garage, I mean, it was like, I feel so grateful to be alive in that age during that time, you know? Cause it's just like the 70s when rock and roll really kind of came into its own with led Zeppelin and Aerosmith, you know, even Ozzy Osborne. And it was like another musical Renaissance. The eighties, we can kind of forget about it a little bit when it comes to me. I love the late seventies with disco. I mean, who loved disco, whatever, you know, that's. I could just go away
Eric Dickmann: 5:48

in the past, right. And bell-bottom pants. Right?
Rick Jordan: 5:50

For sure, man, but the music's a big part of me and that really helped tap the creative side of my brain.
Eric Dickmann: 5:55

So, how did you sort of have that background and then work your way into cybersecurity?
Rick Jordan: 6:02

Dude. That's a fantastic question. And an interesting story too. When I was also, when I was 10, I had a sort of a mentor. If you think like, You know, big brother, big sister kind of program that was around. Cause my dad passed when I was 16. You know, but this dude, his name is Wyatt, who was in my life for a long time friends with my parents. And he was about 10 years older than me. So when I was 10, he was maybe 20 and he was into technology. He was in it. So when I was 10, he helped me build my first computer when I was just 10 years old. Like this is kind of cool and it kind of makes sense to me. It just clicks. And then there's even creativity in some of those things too, which it had to be that in order for me to even have an interest in it, to begin with. Then throughout the course of the next couple of years, I just kind of stuck with that. I never really wanted to get into it, but I wanted to be a cop first, man. I wanted to be in law enforcement. It wasn't, my core is protecting people, justice, you know, making sure that the little guys heard that's, that's what really drives me for this, the pastor side too, man. You know, But then when the military didn't work out, because that was the whole law enforcement path that was going to take, you know, I was a police cadet and everything else, but then it's like, well, there's this technology thing that I'm sort of good at. So I dove into it, but that same dude, man, why science? Eight years later hired me and pulled me out of a warehouse and plugged me into Merrill Lynch. And there I was trained on the job. I mean, it just came so fast to me and I deployed, Jesus, their entire branch offices across the United States. We're kind of spinning off. This was, you know, During the height of the.com, right? 1998, 99. And I loaded, built, deployed 20,000 servers in 150,000 computers. So all the branch offices across the US and I started the troubleshoot and see things that nobody else could because that's the human side of things, you know? Cause. Technicians engineers. They're pretty much linear thinkers for the most part. And it's difficult when something goes outside the box. Yeah. Now when it comes to cybersecurity, it's 100% not linear. And that's where a lot of pitfalls come into play with a lot of cybersecurity techs and one of the departments of Homeland security. So there's only 18% of us and know really what we're doing. You know, so it's four out of five, but I really see it as it's missing that creative part that, that critical thinking outside the box. Because if you go into that site, it's really humans that become, if you want to call it the problem when it comes to cyber, because no matter how many firewalls or how many antiviruses are, how many other things you put into place, there's still Joe in his seat. It's going to click on everything. That comes in and just open the flood Gates, man. So when you look at that and now you're starting to think, Hey, there's the music side, the creativity, and everything. That's part of my background and then the psychology part of it because I can understand what other people think. That's the law enforcement side. And understanding, Hey, what is this person going to click on? Or what's their thought process when they see this kind of an email or when they're in this type of a situation to where they might cross the line and maybe steal from their employer. Cause that's also part of cyber that's insider threats, man. I know I'm covering a lot with this, but it's the creativity side and the human aspect is so important when it comes to cyber.
Eric Dickmann: 9:04

Who do you think is more vulnerable? I mean, big corporations are spending big money on cybersecurity. Right. But they have the most to lose because they have the most customer data, but you have so many small businesses, that could be running old technology that probably doesn't have a dedicated it person or if they do, it's a small shop, but they're also not as big a target. Right. Well, you certainly see some of these ransomware attacks where people are being held hostage for certain amounts of money, but who's the bigger target. Do you think? Small businesses big ones?
Rick Jordan: 9:33

Small businesses for the most part aren't I'll explain exactly why the big corporations you're dead on. They have the big bucks and they spend the big dollars on the protections and procedures. And everything else they put in a place. There's a disconnect from a financial perspective between the percentage of revenue that the large corporations spend and the percentage of revenue that small businesses spend. And really it should be one and the same. Because it's almost like a cookie-cutter man, from that aspect, as far as it's a good metric of good measuring stick, what your revenue is, and you should be spending on all your technology. Anything from four to 7%, that includes cyber. That includes telecommunications. That includes just all the hardware that exists. You know, it's everything you should be spending between four to 7% of what your revenue is. The larger corporations can get it down to that 4%. The smaller businesses. And this is the reason for the disconnect. They're more in the 7% range because they don't have the big budgets and there's not as widely available technology to them. That's something I'm hoping to change, you know, is the next couple of years progressed because reach out is going public this year, which is pretty exciting, you know, that's coming down the road, but just trying to bring everybody underneath the umbrella and. Put out something that really matters because small businesses, they really are a target because they don't spend what they need to on us. And for them, the big corporations, they have cash reserves. If they get hits, you know, there's the biggest thing they have to worry about is not necessarily even the ransomware or the data gets law, that gets locked out. It's the reputation for the large corporations, because if someone gets hacked like Netflix, right. You know, they've gotten hacked before or target had the big breach a few years ago or Equifax. How many people do you hear love Equifax now? Next to nobody, because they've got that reputation stain because they were the ones that got hit and leaked. All of our data, small businesses are a different story because they have, they don't have those cash reserves. If they get hits, you know, I had a neighbor in our business park come over and said, I just had $50,000 man knocked on the door. I had $50,000 just siphoned out of my bank accounts. And it was somebody that targeted us and did some phishing attacks. So they got into our systems, they had a foothold, and then when they were all done, even stealing the money, they still locked him up with ransomware.
Eric Dickmann: 11:46

that's
Rick Jordan: 11:46

The business doesn't exist. Now, it only took them three months to go out because they, you know, they were maybe doing five to 6 million a year in revenue, but they didn't have the protections in place. Let alone the cash reserves to try to recover from something like this. It just doesn't happen.
Eric Dickmann: 11:59

in my background done a lot of system design and UI design. And one of the things that surprises me so much is there are companies out there. I mentioned before the show started that I'm a big Apple fan. There are companies like Apple that are really doing a lot to try to ensure privacy, to try to make security better, but you have something like a secure key chain where your passwords are stored on your computer. And then you go to these websites that don't work with it. That forces you to either manually enter something, create a password. And of course, each one wants to use a different standard. So even when the site allows the system to pre-fill a strong password or random generator, it says, well, no, this isn't in the format that we want. Don't they realize that millions of people use this same browser, the same technology, and shouldn't they test that to make sure that their stuff is compatible with it? It's almost as if they force people down. A path of using a password is a password, because some, it guy has decided that no, they don't want this thing to be prefilled or they haven't even thought about it that, okay, I'm ranting now, but you get
Rick Jordan: 13:08

Oh, good. I do get your points and. To, to tack onto that a little bit, remember the 18% statistic that I told you of it guys, cybersecurity guys actually know what they're doing. You're touching a subject too, because. A lot of differences. Yes. It's it guys, but especially in the large corporations, which handle a lot of these online sites. They also have huge legal teams. And dare I say that 18% of attorneys are really the only ones that know what they're doing too. It's I mean, everyone has opinions of attorneys. Everybody has opinions of it, guys, and they're kind of held in the same place. For the most part, you know, because everyone thinks of the Time Warner guy, the Comcast guy from its perspective that condescending. You know, lower than dirt person that comes into your house because they treat you lower than dirt and other it's like a superiority complex man. And you know, I have. Legal is one of my biggest verticals. And I love, love, love working with legal because it, most of them also have that superiority complex. You know, most attorneys I have this degree, I'm a. My Juris doctorate. I'm the guy. I know everything. I don't even work. I just show up to the trial, to the courtroom and I talk, I have other people to do the research for me. It will. That's, that's awesome. Good for you, but what they don't ever expect, and this is the way to deal with attorneys through this is a nugget I'm going to give you, man, because. The way to handle attorneys, especially from a business perspective. Even when it comes to cyber financial, you know, from a CFO perspective, whatever is stand up to them. They never have anybody except another attorney, which is at their same level, sort of appearing, you know, until you place yourself and inject yourself in that same zone with them in that same league, they're going to treat you as less because they've attained what they feel is a lot more in life. But as soon as you stand your ground and say, this is what I know. And the, one of the best things to tell an attorney has no. It's awesome for real, because then you, but then you explain why, of course.
Eric Dickmann: 15:03

I wish more people would do that.
Rick Jordan: 15:05

Yeah, they're right on most don't because they're intimidating. They are professional arguers that are who are attorneys are. So as soon as you stand up and you stand your ground, they'll respect you even more, man. That's what I've learned in dealing with attorneys. And I love them. Most be like, why do you go after vertical? Like, it's fantastic. I love how these guys think and even more so I understand how they think. And I love the structure, the support structure with the teams they put around them. And it's very easy for me to slide in and say, this is what you need because I'm confident in what I do. It takes a little bit to build that up. But once you're there, you inject yourself in those circles. In that ways, you're going to be respected from here on out.
Eric Dickmann: 15:40

Well, I think there's an element of common sense too, that tends to be missing in all this legal list thought process that goes through. I remember my previous car was a BMW X five, and when you booted the thing up, turn the ignition on, you'd get the warning messages on the display that says, you know, do not use this while you're driving, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, in the meantime, you're trying to back up. And the backup camera doesn't turn on because you've got this legal display message that you have to accept and clear off the screen. Now. W how does that make any sense that it's more dangerous to have a backup camera on then to display this warning message, which is the same every time you get in the car, you know, for the five years you're on the car, whatever that common sense just goes out the windows. But clearly in that case, the lawyers won the argument, right?
Rick Jordan: 16:27

Yeah, you got it. You know, I was, I went to Disney Springs yesterday, cause I'm traveling right now, making a documentary about the government overreach, you know? Maybe we'll talk about that in a sec. I don't know, but as I went there just for dinner because you know, there's a, a watch store. I love it there. There's also a boathouse which is the name of the restaurant. I'm from Chicago. They're owned by Gibsons. You know, you're from
Eric Dickmann: 16:47

Yeah. I'm from Orlando.
Rick Jordan: 16:48

Yeah. Right on, I walk into Disney Springs and I did not bring a mask, you know, and I don't mind wearing one for the purpose of, I don't want to instill fear in others. Cause fear in this whole thing is just crazy, man. I walk up. And as when Disney gives you a mask, you know, if you walk in with your own, they don't, they don't have this thing, but if they give you a mask, they force you to read this laminated card. That's an eight and a half by 11 full sheets of paper card. Of course, from attorneys. That pretty much as I'm reading it, I look up at the, at the very nice woman I say, so this pretty much tells me that the mask isn't going to protect me at all. And she goes, yeah, pretty much. You know, even though, even there, their cast members don't buy into the BS that the lawyers are spewing right now, you know? Cause somebody somewhere just thinks of, Hey, this would probably be good to put on the shoes, but Oh, what if we make somebody read it that way? We're covered. You know, and a lot of that's marketing to man, it really is. I swing it back around. It's just to say, it's an image, it's a brand presence to say that we've got your back. So from a marketing perspective, the legal side makes sense by showing that card because it's a physical, tangible thing that people are forced to read that implies, Hey, we're doing everything we can to try to keep you safe. That's marketing versus legal of course is a liability aspect too. They don't want people suing Disney because they contracted COVID while they were at Disney Springs. I get that. But the other side of it's marketing Yeah.
Eric Dickmann: 18:10

Marketing is the engine that drives demand, but too often it takes a back seat to other priorities. Awareness fails to materialize demand drops in sales falter. Don't wait until it's too late to build your brand awareness and demand generation programs. If your company is struggling with their marketing strategy, we want to help let's schedule a call to talk about your unique situation and what options might be available to get your marketing program back on track. To learn more text C M O two (407) 374-3670 that's C M O two four zero seven. Three seven four three six seven zero. And we'll reply with further details. We hope to hear from you soon. this is actually a good pivot to another conversation here around ethics, because. We live in an era where there is quote-unquote fake news and facts. Aren't always facts. taking the politics out of it. There's a lot of mistrust and there are people that are using the information to manipulate people's opinions of one thing or another. And it seems like corporations, businesses are now being put in a position of having to lead the way. From an ethical standpoint of saying, Hey, this is what we need to do for our employees. This is what we need to do for the environment. This is what we need to do to fix cultural wrongs. So you're a "Situational Ethics" guy. Talk to me a little bit about how you see the evolution of that and what the role is of business in ethics today.
Rick Jordan: 19:49

Yeah. It's, everything comes down to dollars and cents, man. It always has when it comes to "Situational Ethics", you know that the way that I present that topic is always. What will it take to make you cross the line? And most of the time, ethics has always an economic proposition, meaning when there's some kind of dollar scenario involved, you know, I talk about insider threats. If it's an insider threat, this is why it's so important to protect yourself because you don't know if you hire somebody, that person that's sitting right outside your office door that just started three weeks ago, four weeks ago. Maybe they have back taxes. Maybe they have three PR previous marriages that they have alimony that they can't pay for. You know, and they're, they're up against the wall and now they see an opportunity because of some vulnerabilities that you have. And it's not that they're a bad person. You know, they just tend to cross that line because they see, Hey, maybe I can wipe the slate clean and it, you know, So it's, it's sort of a motive opportunity. But it brings out money can bring out the worst in people too. And you go back to the past or side of it. You know, I posted this just a few days ago. It's misquoted in scripture too, in that, you know, that money is the root of all evil. It's not, it's the love of money. That's a that's actually how a read is the root of all evil witch. Translates into greed, you know, or on the other side was "Situational Ethics". It can translate into saving your ass. Yeah, just because you have different scenarios that are in place and something pushes you over that line. It's the same story in business because I've had clients that are doing some shady things that I found out, you know, over the past couple of months with COVID. Everybody has PPP, you know, the paycheck protection program. And there's some that are having trouble spending it because they don't want to bring it back on, bring people back on, especially if they have to, I mean, this is, this, isn't an ethical thing. This is like a human thing. So it starts out as a good thought saying, I don't want to bring somebody back on and then have to lay them off again in two months when my PPP money. Comes about, so I'm not going to bring them back on, but wait, I took the money. I'm passed the safe Harbor period. Now I have to spend it otherwise it's a loan and I owe it back. So in order to get the grant, what do I have to do? And I've heard things floated around like ghost payrolls. You know, and other things to spend this money on and just kind of shift the line items, because think about how many people receive PPP man, even though there were issues with the system. It's still hundreds of thousands of businesses that receive PPP money. Which really is a federal grant. I mean, our tax dollars are paying for it, but for the most, for most people, it's almost like free money. I mean, why would you not take that? You know, it's pretty great because I was able to bring people on board, and from an ethical perspective, I didn't lay anybody off in my organization. I hired more. You know, and did some shifting around and doubling down, it's kind of like wartime CEO is what I look at this as, you know, but from an ethical perspective, that those, that money that comes in when it's just sitting there, man, that's that situation. And then the ethics that get applied. It's like, if I don't do this, then I'm going to, owe, this. So I'm going to try to save myself. And then the thoughts start popping up in your head.
Eric Dickmann: 22:49

Well, you have the same thing on the personal side, right? Where people are getting unemployment insurance and now their job becomes available again. And they say, well, do I stay on unemployment or do I go back to the job? that's an ethical question, right? Because your job is back. You technically should be going back to work.
Rick Jordan: 23:06

You got it. I remember it was so the state of Illinois, I looked at those two because in case I did have to lay people off, which I thank God I didn't. It, I was looking at their options, but to your point, you know, cause then there was federal supplementation of more dollars to that came and some ended up making more to your point then what they were even making at their job, making more on unemployment than their wages from their job. So then the question, well, why should I go back? Well, it's because it's the right thing to do. Because if you stay out of work unemployed longer, when your job becomes available, now you're literally stealing from everybody else that the 300 and something million people that are in this country. Yeah. And when you place that it's a, it's taking from somebody else in order to put yourself in a lazy position. You know, it's, it's a society thing and I don't want to get to a. Philosophical today, but it's when the government steps in man and says, Hey, we're just going to give you money. And there's no recourse as far as what you have to do for that. I'm all for certain types of programs like paycheck, protection, I'm all for. Supplementing people's income because this has been a tragic situation this year. You know, from, an economic and from a health perspective, both sides have been tragic. And everybody, as an American, in my opinion, has the responsibility to do their part. And doing their part comes down to that ethical question that you're talking about right now, when it comes to my job wants to bring me back. You go back because that's you continue to try to build the economy rather than leeching off of it.
Eric Dickmann: 24:38

you're honestly rolling the dice if you don't because with 40 million people out of work when that unemployment does run out, That job might not be there anymore because there are an awful lot of other people who would like it. And I think that that's a scenario that not enough people are considering as they look to what their next decision is going to be around working. obviously you're very passionate about it. we should mention, you wrote this book and it's called "Situational Ethics". What was it that really pushed you into writing the book?
Rick Jordan: 25:06

I had Forbes approaching me a couple of years ago to write a cybersecurity book because they see me speak on stage. I'm a dynamic speaker, you know, and of course, when somebody sees a speaker like, Oh, he probably has a good story. they wanted me to write a cybersecurity book. And at that point in time, you know, typical cybersecurity books is what they were looking for. It'll firewall and all this other stuff, whatever. And present it to my segment, mice, my industry sector. And I declined that deal because I didn't want to be white noise. Yeah. So even though I probably could have sold hundreds of thousands of more books, if I took that, it wasn't right for me. And then I started talking with a different coach who helped me self publish this. And it was just, it is all true stories from my life, man. It's a blend. I mean, there's some cybersecurity stories in there, but it has to do with the people side of things. There are some stories where it's really just, people were pushed over the edge. You know, because of money and there are others to where it's not even just money. It also comes to power and, and read and sex. Those are some of the stories that are in there, man, and people do crazy things when it comes to trying to position themselves. In the social circle of life. And it's what would you do? I think I'm going to write a second edition to this because I really wanted it to be reflective at the end. Yeah. And it's almost like. Way, most of the described it to me as it's almost like binge-watching a Netflix show. You know, once you start into the first story. It's so revealing, you know, almost like a house of cards. If I could. You watched the first episode and it's just so intense, you know, and at the same time, you want to go take a shower afterward because you, because of what you just watched, but you read these stories and these are all true stories, man. It's like, this actually happens. You know, but then it's a reflection period because it's meant to show those individuals as saying you're really just like them. What would you do in this situation? Would you cross that line or would you take a different path? Because nobody really, really knows until they're actually in that scenario.
Eric Dickmann: 27:02

we started this conversation talking about your purple and how that fits into your brand, but so much. I think of what we're hearing from the conversation lately, whether you talk about a Facebook or a Twitter or an Apple or a Google is really around some tough choices that they need to make. And how they are going to demonstrate their values as a company and how those values then become part of their brand. And so. The package that all up for me kind of nicely, because that really is talking about the ethics it's what do you stand for? What do you believe in, how are you going to live? Those ethics and values are, are pretty tightly related, right? And so how can business, if I'm a business owner, I'm a, I'm a professional in the marketing space. How can I use ethics and values to help my business?
Rick Jordan: 27:55

Man. That's a great question. You know, it's good to self reflect and ask where your values lie. You know, when it comes to those things, I'm a big proponent of our constitution. And the first amendments, when it comes to free speech, especially freedom to assemble, you know, that's why I'm doing this documentary man. It comes down to, but from a marketing perspective, Yeah. I'm really, really excited about, Elon Musk. I don't know if you saw what he tweeted this past week. But he going to, whether it comes to Facebook or Twitter, it's social media, and it's also media, other media outlets, traditional media outlets, you know, even down to newspapers, online newspapers reporters individually, he's going to build a site that tracks their credibility. Overtime. And scores them as far as the amount of BS, they spew out.
Eric Dickmann: 28:41

very
Rick Jordan: 28:42

Because. Yeah, it was because he blamed social media and some articles for two years ago for Tesla's sales dropping tremendously. And it was all fake news. As you said, you know, if you want to use that phrase, it wasn't true. There was no basis, in fact, and Tesla's sales and their stock plummeted for a time period because of that. So now with everything going on and I mean, I don't know if he's really, you could guess, you know, I don't know if he's right-wing, left-wing. It's not what it matters. He's just saying I'm going to plug something down the middle and this is what I can do to contribute to this, to see where the ethics lie of these media agencies and the individuals that work for them. I think it's an ingenious idea of man because we don't have insight into that right now. We might think that they do good or they try to do good, but. I mean 20 years ago, 30 years ago, there was more like responsible journalism. If you want to call it that now it's just to get the story. It's as simple as that. So if somebody says one thing, it's almost as if they're going to try to come up with something just to play that delicate devil's advocate role, but go way beyond that Mark too, just to try to draw emotion and anger and frustration out of that person. You know, the reason, one of the people I interviewed for this documentary. Ellen Zang has Chinese radio. He's out of San Francisco and he broadcast via shortwave into China illegally. You know, and one of the things in the interview, he has 90 million listeners in China, man. Billion something people that they have. It's amazing. But one of the things he talked about with American pressing you talk about values and ethics because social media marketing, it falls into that. That is a form of the press in my opinion. And it's a form that you can actually use to your advantage and try to help control the story to an extent. You know, with the exception of even like ads that I put out the other day for a webinar I'm doing in my space, they labeled them as MLM. Multilevel marketing when it's just a free webinar with an industry. A leader that's right next to me, just to say, Hey, I want to help other people because they're struggling during this time. It was as simple as that, it was a free live training on how to raise your revenue. You know, and it was flagged as MLM by Facebook, Zuckerberg hates MLM. So there were just keywords that flag my ad I'm like, yeah. OK. Cause, cause I'm totally an Amway little sarcasm.
Eric Dickmann: 30:55

right, right.
Rick Jordan: 30:56

Exactly. But Ellen Zang, he has so many listeners and he used to, he grew up in That's actually where he was born and the radio that would come in and be a short wave back then, too. They would love to hear the American news because it was almost like current affairs. It was factual. They couldn't depend on the communist, China, the party that exists there to blast, which they still do this almost similar to like Nazi Germany over loudspeakers still to this day from the government, from the Chinese communist party. That's the only news that they get. Is filtered directly from the government, from the communist party. So they look to America for current affairs, for the factual information on what's going on. And then he shifts, he says, I'm starting to see a shift to really what China's doing right now. Yeah, where's the ethics. Where does that lie? Because whatever happened to that, just presenting the facts and letting people think for themselves, just telling exactly what happened rather than pushing an opinion. Of that individual person or pushing controversy just to get ratings.
Eric Dickmann: 32:02

Yeah, I think that's so true. And we've got this pack mentality now where we tend to seek out news and information that validates our own thoughts and our own thinking versus trying to hear other points of view and just being a little bit more open to listening. And I think that that's a real challenge for a lot of people as well. You know, the old saying, opinions are like belly buttons, right? Everybody's got one, but it's facts are facts and it's good to get out there and really expose yourself to a lot of different things. So obviously ethics play a huge role in this. I think it's been elevated in the conversation, not only because of the political environment that we're in but because we've had to deal with, the realities or the non-realities around COVID. The closing of the businesses. We've got crazy things happening in the stock market. We've got George Floyd, black lives matter movement, all this kind of stuff going on. It's we're, we're living in a crazy time and ethics certainly plays a very important role. I think how we get through it.
Rick Jordan: 32:57

You got it when it comes to marketing, you know, the biggest two words that I've ever heard from a coach that resonates with me is just never lie. Any kind of marketing piece that you do just presented exactly how it is. And then there's a tag onto that too. From marketing, advice perspective is never compared. Because if you have competitive ads, you know, that says I'm doing this and this person's not, or whatever it is now, all of a sudden they have to fact check you rather than pre placing yourself as a premium and this elite product or elite service in your marketing. So where people don't start to try to compare a fact check you because as soon as you try to do that comparison in any marketing piece, this is a personal belief that I have in any marketing piece, then they will have to almost. Feel obligated to go out and check out your competition and see, Hey, is he really telling the truth here? Because he's comparing himself to some of these other people.
Eric Dickmann: 33:48

You're so right there. And in some cases, they might not have even heard of the competitors before. So you're actually opening up a door that's happened to me many times where somebody has talked about a competitor I've gone to that site. And I ended up buying the competitor's solution
Rick Jordan: 34:00

Yeah, right on.
Eric Dickmann: 34:01

So I know that, in addition to all your speaking and TV, appearances and whatnot, you also host a podcast of your own "All In with Rick Jordan", right. So tell us a little bit about what topics you cover in.
Rick Jordan: 34:11

Yeah, man. I mean, it's three pillars, which really are so broad, but it's life, business, and tech, you know, the tech side is all the cybersecurity. I have people from my industry on, in that business is just general conversations like we're having today. You know, about marketing because even though I'm a tech company, it's almost like I'm also a media company. And I feel almost any business needs to be that way now because people buy from people. If you don't have a personal brand, which is really what the podcast supports, you're doing yourself a disservice. If you don't do something to get your face out there, even. If you're never the one that talks to your customers, look at John ledger from T-Mobile. He's a perfect example. Former CEO uses a slow cooker guy, you know, on Sundays cooking in the crockpot, but people started buying from T-Mobile, even though he would never go down and work the counter, you know, and sell a phone or whatever it is people would buy from T-Mobile because of him and because of the personal brand that he built. Yeah, "All In with Rick Jordan" is a format for that. But man, I love talking to interesting people and it lifts me up when I hear the perspectives of a lot of others, you know, even being on your show today, man, I love this kind of conversation. Just to talk about life from a factual standpoint, that's not biased from one direction or another with the ultimate goal of really bringing value to everybody else.
Eric Dickmann: 35:21

yeah. It's that bringing value? It's hearing different people's perspectives. It's opening your mind to things that you might not have thought about before. Yeah, it's great. I've really enjoyed this conversation as well. Tell the audience. Well, thanks. I really appreciate you being here and great that you're visiting our great city of Orlando, right at the peak of the coronavirus pen.
Rick Jordan: 35:40

Drove. Yes. Road trip over to over to Clearwater doing a little more business over here.
Eric Dickmann: 35:44

okay. Well, great. Well, tell people where they can find you online and the best ways to contact you and where they can pick up your book as well.
Rick Jordan: 35:50

You got an Amazon anywhere else borders. It doesn't matter. My books everywhere, you know, it's published by the major people and you can find me on any social platform at Mr. Rick Jordan. That's the handle, Mr. Rick Jordan. That's Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. I'm very active on Instagram, just because I like the imagery and creativity. It's a personal thing for me. Yeah, Twitter. I'm pretty active on too. But check, check me out. Connect with me Dm there are email addresses. There are two that show up and you can get connected with my team.
Eric Dickmann: 36:20

that's great. And we will put all that in the show notes so that people can take a look and see those links there. But again, the book was "Situational Ethics". The podcast was "All in with Rick Jordan". Rick, this has been a great conversation. We recovered a lot of ground. Yeah. I really appreciate you being on the show today and best of luck with the documentary.
Rick Jordan: 36:36

Thank you, Eric. It's going to be fun.
Eric Dickmann: 36:40

that wraps up another episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. As a reminder, if you'd like to learn more about Virtual CMO, strategic marketing consulting services, or anything else discussed here today, please visit us at fiveechelon.com. There's a link in the show notes. If you'd like to send us comments, feedback, guest inquiries, and your five-star reviews on Apple Podcasts are always appreciated. If you'd like to reach me. I'm EDickmann. That's E D I C K M A N N on Twitter. If you'd like to connect on LinkedIn, please let me know. You heard about me through The Virtual CMO podcast. I look forward to talking with you again next week and sharing some new marketing insights on The Virtual CMO.