How to Transform Your Team Through Agile Marketing with Andrea Fryrear

In this episode, host Eric Dickmann interviews Andrea Fryrear. Andrea is the co-founder of AgileSherpas and a leading authority on optimizing customer acquisition and retention processes. She’s the author of two books on organizational agility, and an international speaker and trainer. 

Her newest book is entitled "Mastering Marketing Agility." In addition to working in the trenches with dozens of the world’s most innovative companies, Andrea has spent years achieving numerous certifications in how to improve all aspects of organizational performance.

https://masteringmarketingagility.com

Eric Dickmann can be found on Twitter @EDickmann and LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/edickmann and my website https://ericdickmann.com

Andrea Fryrear can be found online at https://www.agilesherpas.com/ on Twitter @Andreafryrear, and LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/afryrear/

Episode Summary: The episode summary can be found at https://fiveechelon.com/transform-your-team-through-agile-marketing-s3e11

If you'd like to contact us with feedback or guest inquiries, please visit:
https://fiveechelon.com/podcast

For more information about Virtual CMO strategic marketing consulting services, visit The Five Echelon Group at https://fiveechelon.com
 
Episode #42

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Transcript

Carla: 0:01

The Virtual CMO podcast is sponsored by the strategic marketing consulting services of The Five Echelon Group. If you’d like to work directly with The Five Echelon Group and receive personal coaching and support to optimize your business, enhance your marketing effectiveness and grow your revenue, visit Five Echelon.com to learn more and schedule a free consultation.

Eric Dickmann: 0:24

Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm your host, Eric Dickmann. In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business. This week, I'm excited to welcome Andrea. Prior to the show, Andrea is the co-founder of agile Sherpas and a leading authority on optimizing customer acquisition and retention processes. She's the author of two books on organizational agility and an international speaker and trainer. Her newest book is entitled mastering marketing agility. In addition to working in the trenches with dozens of the world's most innovative companies, Andrea has spent years achieving numerous certifications in how to improve all aspects of organizational performance. Andrea. Hello and welcome to the virtual CMO podcast. I'm so glad you could join us.

Andrea Fryrear: 1:19

So glad to be here, Eric.

Eric Dickmann: 1:20

Now, this is going to be exciting. I'm looking forward to this conversation. It's a little bit different than some of the conversations we've been having recently. And I'm looking forward to your insights. before we dig into it, I wanted to talk a little bit about your background. I know that you're an author, you're a speaker. You do corporate training and things like that. How have things changed for you since the world of COVID hit?

Andrea Fryrear: 1:42

Yeah. the world is very different from where I sit. It's all done mostly in a very good way. Weirdly. we obviously used to spend a lot of time on the road, face to face with clients doing consulting and training and all of that stuff. the nice thing about lockdown for us has been that we can help more people in the same time window, cause we don't have to be on a plane to go and visit them. So we can jump back and forth between different clients over the course of a day or a week. And we've been able to do a lot more, but that's also meant that we've had to have the, how do we scale up conversation pretty quickly, and also working through logistics of training. We've trained hundreds of people over the summer, and everybody has technical questions. And then also questions about the content. And so the work is different. in some ways we played tech support more than we used to, but, it's been a really exciting. also just see marketing leaders really. Take advantage of the crisis. I'm not sure that's the right phrase, don't want the crisis go to waste and use it to make process improvements. Operational improvements. That might have been harder to get buy in before and now; it's a must have. And so people are using it as a catalyst for change, which I think is cool.

Eric Dickmann: 2:57

No, I love that because that's been a recommendation that I've had for a lot of my clients, as well as use this downtime. If you're going to reduce your marketing spend because the market has evaporated on you, use this to put processes, systems technology in place to be able to help you when we get out of this COVID moment. So I think that's so important. And so you've started this firm, Agile Sherpas. do I have that right?

Andrea Fryrear: 3:20

Yeah, that's right. Agile Sherpas.

Eric Dickmann: 3:22

How did that get started?

Andrea Fryrear: 3:23

So I discovered agile about six years ago now, when I was running content for a SAS company and the developers were agile, we were not, and we couldn't keep up. We would just always be behind and always be trying to play catch up. And so I managed to convince my marketing leader at the time to let me try being agile. Like they were, because I'm a writer and I ran the blog. I was writing about it as well and saying what was working and what we were doing. And I started having more and more people reach out to me and say, Hey, could you help me do the same thing that you did? to the point where I realized this could actually be a really fun career. And so I left and started agile Sherpas and that's been about three years ago now. And so for three ish years been full time consulting and coaching with marketing teams. And it's been really fantastic.

Eric Dickmann: 4:14

I come from a software development background as well, so I'm familiar with agile, but there may be many people in our audience that are not, and I found a definition and I just want to read it to you and see if you think that this is a pretty good explanation of what agile is. It says agile software development refers to software development Methodology is centered around the idea of iterative development or requirements and solutions Solved through collaboration between self-organizing cross functional teams. The ultimate value in agile development is that it enables teams to deliver value faster. With greater quality and predictability and greater aptitude to respond to change. What do you like?

Andrea Fryrear: 4:55

That is a great definition. Yeah. it's very comprehensive. I liked it.

Eric Dickmann: 5:00

this did get its origins right. In more of a software development and that space within technology. So what was the migration then to take a methodology like that? To someplace like marketing?

Andrea Fryrear: 5:14

Yeah, it's very interesting because pre agile software development was this really critical bottleneck in most organizations that were reliant on technology because it would take them months and months, sometimes years to deliver anything to the market. And then it would be oftentimes a flop, right? We can. Think of lots of examples of that. But once agile solves a lot of that for software development, the bottlenecks moves to other parts of the organization. And so marketing started to become a drag. we couldn't keep up with product releases. We were not able to update messaging and branding because we were still doing that super traditional waterfall. Nine months to get anything into the market kinds of planning and execution of work. And so that's, I think part of the driver for agility to now migrate into other parts of the organization is so that we can keep pace. Even if you're not supporting an agile software development team, the world around us has become much more agile in the sense that consumers expect a lot more real time messaging. They expect us to be responsive and adaptive in ways that traditional operational models just can't keep up with. And regardless of whether you support an agile software development team are not agile ways of working really help marketers and any kind of knowledge work really. do better work faster.

Eric Dickmann: 6:37

And you found in consulting and talking to some of your clients. That I assume they're seeing big results when they switch over to a more agile way of doing their marketing.

Andrea Fryrear: 6:46

Yeah. Yeah. It's it impacts both what you do and how you do it. So you're able to learn what types of channels campaign's messaging are effective much more quickly. So you test and learn out of much; faster cadence, but then you're also improving your efficiency so you can do more in less time. And so it all builds and compounds and gains in marketing outcomes, the ROI of a campaign. For instance, better engagement scores from employees, which helps with retention, keep people around longer. You don't have to deal with churn. And then you also see, like I said, general, just things run more smoothly from an operational level.

Eric Dickmann: 7:28

I would think that in many ways, the era that we're in now with marketing automation tools really helps this process because, you know, in marketing, we do a lot of AB testing. You can run ads on Google, on Facebook, wherever it may be, and you can get feedback. literally the same day, depending on the scale of your outreach. And that's not necessarily true in software development, right? You have to go through a process of designing something, testing it, seeing if it works, maybe seeing what the user adoption is, but marketing seems like a very. A good place for agile to take hold.

Andrea Fryrear: 8:03

Yeah, absolutely. And. This wouldn't have worked, in kind of old school admin style marketing, where it was print and television ads only. it is the digital nest of modern marketing that really drives a lot of this capability, so that even if we are going to do a larger, commercial or print spend or something, we can validate those ideas through digital testing and learn, cycles so that when we do make that big investment, we know we're doing the right thing instead of putting a lot of money into something and then seeing it blow up in our faces.

Eric Dickmann: 8:40

I've got your book here, which was a very interesting read Mastering Marketing Agility. And you start out the book and you talk about seven key principles. And I was wondering if you could just walk us through that a little bit. What are the seven key principles and the foundation of what you believe, make some marketing team agile.

Andrea Fryrear: 8:58

Yeah, I, we always start off with this kind of mindset and principles discussion with clients as well, because if you skip straight to the practices and let's have a daily standup, and let's get a digital project management tool and all this fancy stuff without changing the way you think about planning and the way you think about team structures. Then you won't get as big of an impact as you should have. And some of those principles are, things like, focus on problem solving and finding, like driving to a solution instead of just, Hey, this is a problem. It's not my job to fix it. we're all. We're all together in the attempts to find really valuable solutions for our customers and our audiences. And so that's one of my favorites, in terms of just like drive to solutions, we're a team, we're a unit that needs to collaborate towards these ideas as opposed to, we're function A and your function B when we're done, you get your stuff. And we don't really care what happens is after we're done with our piece.

Eric Dickmann: 9:57

One of the principles that I really related to was this idea around customer focus. And obviously that's so important when you're understanding your total addressable market, your product market fit, how you can be successful in the marketplace, but you introduced a concept that I thought was interesting. minimal viable persona and value proposition canvas, these two canvases that you created, could you just walk through that? Because that was the first time that I had really heard about this minimal viable, persona. I liked that.

Andrea Fryrear: 10:25

Yeah. I've been on marketing teams and there we all have where you have the persona binder that just like sits. On your desk and you never really do anything with it, but we spend all this time and sometimes pay all this money to get them created, but then we don't ever want to touch them. Cause there's like this expensive, beautiful artifact. But instead, we can get to know our customers in a more agile iterative way. And so we can do some basic knowledge collection to create what we believe to be a representation of our persona. And it's not a guest, It's based on our knowledge and expertise and we can tap into sales and customer service are these kinds of folks to help us. But then we go and validate it in the market, And say, okay, based on what we know, we think this type of messaging or this type of imagery or this channel is the right way to talk to this persona. Let's try right. And Oh, Nope. That sort of worked, but maybe we try to it's different. And so it's an iterative process. And over time, the persona expands to represent this new information that we've collected, but we can start doing this and learning in a couple of weeks as opposed to. Hey, it takes us months and months to collect all of this information. And then we have this document that we don't ever want to touch again. So it's a very different, approach to personas and the value prop canvas is similar like that. That's a. Agile tool that I've adapted again from software to marketing as a way to create campaigns and programs and messaging that are built on what the customer wants, instead of all the cool stuff we want to talk about from our products and services.

Eric Dickmann: 12:05

I really like this idea, because what you're saying is that you don't want to spend lots of time and lots of money creating that binder. That is your customer persona or avatar. Instead, what you're saying is let's do some work. Let's figure out who we think it is and then let's test it. Let's iterate. Let's see if we're right. but during that testing process, you're still narrowing it down. You're still narrowing your focus. Is that right?

Andrea Fryrear: 12:30

Yeah, that's exactly right. The minimum buyable persona is, version one and we would expect it to evolve and change over time. Just like we would with an iterative campaign release or an iterative software release. The first thing you put out is not going to be the last thing you put out. And so there's that expansion and building over time.

Eric Dickmann: 12:51

So how does agile help with this problem that so many companies get into where they focus so much on the features and not necessarily the problems that they're solving.

Andrea Fryrear: 13:02

Yeah, this is something that I think it's overlooked when we think about agility, is it all is very centered on consistent delivery of value to a customer. that's what agile is for its speed. Yes. Efficiency. Yes. Collaboration for sure. But we do all of that so we can deliver value more frequently. And Agiles kind of the cycles, right? If you've been an agile sprints is something you've probably encountered the idea that in this short time box of just a couple of weeks, usually. We're going to say, what could we do in the next two weeks that when we finish it will provide value to the audience and then we will release it. Hopefully people won't respond well to it, and then we will build on it. Or if it was a flop, at least it was only a two week efforts worth of a flop and we'll move away from it. But it was a low risk, could a safe to fail experiments. And I think that's what a lot of marketers are missing is this is okay for this not to be perfect. And. It's okay for it not to be a home run every time, because the more we learn what doesn't work, the closer we get to the thing that works really well.

Eric Dickmann: 14:11

That's a great segue into what I wanted to really talk about next, which is people because that's so important in this whole process. And I think what you were just describing is an ability to fail. So to be able to try new things and see what works and what doesn't work, and that's an uncomfortable place for many people inside companies, right? Because. You're rewarded for success, not for failure, but I think as marketers, we all know that you can't really be successful in marketing, unless you're trying a number of things and optimizing seeing what's works best. So how do you work with organizations and their talent and their management to say, it's okay to fail or you're encouraged to fail.

Andrea Fryrear: 14:52

Yeah, it can be a long journey.

Eric Dickmann: 14:55

Yeah. I bet.

Andrea Fryrear: 14:56

To go through, but, thinking through especially, you know, in regulated industries, there are actual risks associated with doing things in a two. In a way that's too quick or not compliant and things like that. So really thinking through what is the definition of done for something, right? When is it finished enough to go out into the market for some organizations that's more, there's more scope to that than others, right? If your software development, marketing team you're different than if you're financial services, marketing team, but figuring out what is actually done, how could we release something more early? And get it to a point where we could get feedback on it. Instead of getting fixated on one team that I coached, I liked the phrase that they use polishing the Apple, like the Apple. Good enough for now. and again, if you're doing a really iterative approach, you're going to come back to it, it's not out there like that forever. There's an opportunity to come back around and improve it, which is, again, something most marketing teams don't do enough of. We put it out, we race on to the next thing and we don't ever circle back and say, Hey, did that actually work? Should we do that again? Or should we never do it again?

Eric Dickmann: 16:08

I call that the Eye of Sauron problem, it just kinda moves around, but it never gets back to where it started. And so things sit out there forever. I think one of the things that is true for many marketing professionals today is that there's a lot on their plate. There are a lot of channels. Did you have to support? There's a lot of content that you need to create and to constantly keep up with it, updating it, refreshing it it's a lot of work and to go along with that, we started the conversation, talking a little bit about changes with COVID and one of the big changes with COVID is remote work. So now you have teams that are working remotely. how does this affect thing like scrums and the ability to collaborate? Have you seen a positive effect, a negative effect, no effect. Is it just different?

Andrea Fryrear: 16:51

some of it depends on the maturity of the team. I think pre distribution, groups that I've worked with that were agile prior to lockdown have said how they don't know how they could have done it without their, visualized workflow, Their digital canvaban board where everything lives and now everyone can see it all the time. And so it made distribution less painful. likewise, they have a daily standup meeting, even now they do it virtually. And so it's this recurring a nice touchpoint where things can continue to move forward. And whether you do it video version, or we all stand up in a room together version, the benefits are very similar. And so agile has really been a great. helper for the teams that are using it in distributed environments. And then for those who weren't using it prior to lockdown, I think it was a big driver to say, what can we do to collaborate better? Because now it's, you just have to do a little bit extra. You work a little bit harder to make those connections and to find that time to collaborate and the agile cycles, right where we plan quite frequently. And we review quite frequently instead of, Hey, let's get together once a quarter and then go off into our separate. Home offices and not see or talk to each other for three months. it just doesn't work now more than ever because people's buying behaviors. I've changed. People's expectations about, brands. Messaging right. and involvement in a lot of these social justice conversations. There's a lot of expectations around that and we have to be able to be more responsive. We can't say, we'll talk about that at the next quarterly planning meeting, but we're just going to stay the course until then.

Eric Dickmann: 18:30

I been a remote worker for many years. I've talked about it a lot on this podcast and I'd love that. but I'm used to it, but I will say that even with zoom calls and, being able to get together with collaboration tools and online chat and Slack, those kinds of things. But one thing that still is a little bit difficult. Are things like a white boarding session. there are certainly tools that allow you to do that, but there is something about just standing up in front of a group with a marker on a white board and being able to brainstorm that is difficult. I think still using some of these collaboration tools.

Andrea Fryrear: 19:04

Yeah, it's not perfect. That's for sure. but I think there are options, like we use Miro. MIRO with a lot of our clients and it's pretty close, like everyone can be in there at the same time, writing sticky, noting, and getting in there together because that's really the benefit of those kinds of moments is we're all putting our collective brain power at this one. Physical place. and so then if you can't do that, what's the next best thing. I've been. When I wasn't with clients, I always worked from my home office, but I was with clients a lot. And so it balanced out and I was on a call with a client the other day, and he had a wall of sticky notes behind him. And I was like, Oh, sticky notes. I missed sticky notes. Like just the physical act of putting them up and moving them. It's really hard to replicate that. And we should recognize that, that there's going to be a lack in some of these digital collaboration moments and do our best to account for it.

Eric Dickmann: 20:03

Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to the podcast. But first, are you ready to grow, scale, and take your marketing to the next level? If so, The Five Echelon Group's Virtual CMO onsulting service may be a great fit for you. We can help build a strategic marketing plan for your business and manage its execution, step-by-step. We'll focus on areas like how to attract more leads. How to create compelling messaging that resonates with your ideal customers. How to strategically package and position your products and services. How to increase lead conversion, improve your margins, and scale your business. To find out more about our consulting offerings and schedule a consultation, go to fiveechelon.com and click on Services. Now back to the podcast. Another thing that you talked about in your book, I was this whole idea around processes, and I was wondering, especially in larger organizations, our processes, really the depth of innovation, the death of the ability to be agile. I look at processes so often as excuses not to do something or roadblocks in the way of doing things. How do you deal with processes? Which of course, we all know you need some and they need to be enforced for certain reasons, but a lot of big organizations have process overkill.

Andrea Fryrear: 21:22

Yeah, that's so true. And. Agile processes I think are meant to provide. Freedom within structure. so there's, if we're building from the basic agile values of. Getting a group like the definition you read at the start of the episode. if you're getting a group of people who are cross-functional together and believe that their collective expertise will provide the best solution to a problem. Then all we need are processes that give them the appropriately framed problem and allow them the space and freedom to go and solve that problem. And so it's very lightweight agile processes. Whereas I think a lot of especially marketing organizations have swung too far the other way where it's, while I changed one word in this headline, but now five creative directors need to sign off on the new version. And that type of overkill does kill agility because I can't get that out in this sprint. If these five people have to review it and they're all already swamped with too many other things. So then the agile processes die under those kinds of weighty processes. yeah, I think the difference is the aim of the belief in why the processes exist and then the general approach to them, that makes agile ways of working really different.

Eric Dickmann: 22:46

I think you mentioned earlier Trello as a tool to use for your canvaban board, I believe. And are there other tools that you find are really helpful, in this space? I see a great tie into processes, right? Because some simple tools can enforce processes, make things very visible to the team that's working on them. So what are some typical tools that are used in more of an agile environment?

Andrea Fryrear: 23:10

there's. There's an exhaustive, universe out there of tools. my recommendation is always to go with something that's native agile, That was designed for agile teams. Whereas some of these more traditional project management tools that are trying to like. Retrofit themselves to be agile, often fall short. So that's my kind of general advice about it. Trello, Miro mural, is another one that are. They mirror the sticky note, moving across the whiteboard quite nicely. and especially for folks that are newer to agile, I would say start somewhere super simple. Like those, don't get bogged down and. Perfect board design or, trying to learn this intricate project management tool. But just get it, get comfortable with the active visualization and keeping it updated. And then you're going to be a much smarter buyer. If you do find that you need something, especially if you have multiple teams that have different pieces of a project. You need a roll up view to see if the project holistically is on track. And so then there's an argument for a more sophisticated tool, but you'll know what you need and you can go shop for the right feature sets instead of just, this says agile in their product description. So let's buy that one and hope it works out. Okay.

Eric Dickmann: 24:29

I think that's great advice because it's so easy to overwhelm a team with tools. And when you're changing processes at the same time, it's just a lot for people to absorb. It's a little things need to happen. Not necessarily everything big all at once. you also talked in the book about this idea of BRP. Can you explain a little bit about what that is?

Andrea Fryrear: 24:53

Yeah, BRP is big room planning and this is again, I didn't invent a lot of this stuff. I'm just taking it right. And translating it to work inside of marketing. But this is the idea that, in pre COVID times, we would ever get everyone into an actual big room once a quarter. And we would show Intel our backlogs, which would be the teams upcoming to do list for the quarter and say, here's what we're planning to do. A sales too. And how we're going to plan to support you. What are you thinking about this? And sales would say, this looks great, except we have a trade show in March that you forgot to include. So we're going to need more support there. And everybody does it. The best is when you know, product and sales and marketing are all together in the big room. And then we can talk about dependencies and where the handoffs are going to be, and really get out ahead of a lot of this stuff. But even if you're just marketing, doing it alone, it's so powerful to just see it all, to see everything that everybody does. And what the impacts on the other teams might be. You save yourself so much time and heartache and rushed deadlines later on down the road. But it's several days, to get everybody together and to talk through things sufficiently, to have shared understanding and alignment. So this is not, An hour in zoom every three months. Like it's a substantial time investment, but it does pay dividends really seriously over the course of the work being done. And especially for marketing, where we have a lot of specialized roles and resources, we often don't really understand all the hard work that our colleagues are doing. We feel like c'mon insights. Why does everything take so long? We're always waiting on you. But if we see they're huge backlog of work at big room planning, we realize all the other inputs they're having to process all the other requests they're dealing with. And then we can realize why they're always behind on the work we asked them to do. And plan accordingly instead of just feeling constantly frustrated because things are late.

Eric Dickmann: 27:00

So this really sounds like an exercise in breaking down silos and helping people to really understand how maybe what they're doing affects other people down the line or up the line, wherever it may be. But it's really it's big picture.

Andrea Fryrear: 27:13

Yeah, it's big picture. it's a forced moment to stop and think about what's coming. also a great time to say, Hey, how'd all that work we did last quarter. Pan out, right? What did we learn? How is our next quarters plan gonna be informed by those activities? And to have the marketing leadership provide that strategic perspective, here's where we're going and why and how we hope to get there. And then the teams to say, great, this is how we think we're going to contribute to that bigger objective and how we're going to work together as a marketing function to reach our goals.

Eric Dickmann: 27:48

I love that. And as we're getting near the end of the discussion here, I wanted to sort of end on this idea. right now it's very popular to talk about things like tiny habits, little things that you can do to move forward. And I know you have a chapter towards the end of the book where you're talking about things that people can do to start to implement this. what are some things that people could start to do today? just in terms of little steps, little changes in their processes to start to become more agile.

Andrea Fryrear: 28:16

Couple of things are easy wins. quick wins, maybe not easy. They require some effort, but is the visibility, right? So creating a backlog of everything, even you as an individual are responsible for. So you can do it individually, best case scenario, you do it for your team. It's everything out in a prioritized list. So one, two, three, what are the most important things we could be working on? And then It becomes the source of truth for what the teams next activities should be. So backlog and then some kind of simple, what are we doing? A canvaban board, basically. So to do doing done can be your super simple starting point. And what you'll find out is a lot of stuff is in doing a and not a lot of stuff makes it to done. If you don't focus your energies on just a few things in the doing column. So backlog and visualized workflow are awesome. And then what you'll find next is that daily standups style meeting, right? The every day, 15 minutes we chat about, here's what I moved into doing and why I moved it and what I plan to do to get it over to done today. And here's what I finished yesterday and what I need help with. So these kind of quick collaborative conversations. Focused on that board really helped. Just get more stuff out the door.

Eric Dickmann: 29:36

I think that's excellent and very helpful tips. So I wanted to hear a little bit more about what you do at Agile Sherpa, how people can get in touch with you and obviously where they can get the book as well.

Andrea Fryrear: 29:48

Yeah, absolutely. So Agile Sherpas is an agile marketing coaching training and consulting organization. So we work with marketing leaders to help look at things like team structure. departmental design processes, all of those kinds of crucial foundational elements and then design a transformation path that suits them. So what educational opportunities do we need to take advantage of in terms of training for the marketers themselves, for leadership, for partners or stakeholders, and then to coach them through it. So we're really there as Sherpas to guide you up the mountain, make sure you don't die along the way and make sure that the transformation is Successful. And, we're agile, sherpas.com, pretty easy to find us. And the book is on Amazon Barnes and noble. All of those kinds of typical places where you would find the book. You can also just go to masteringmarketingagility.com and find links there.

Eric Dickmann: 30:45

That's great. And we will definitely have all the links in the show notes. Here on YouTube and Facebook as well as in the podcast itself. So we will make sure that everybody can find that they're at, or this has been a great conversation. I love this topic and I think the book was informative. And I think it's got a lot of really practical insights for marketing teams to use, to really move their teams to an agile methodology. So thanks for sharing that.

Andrea Fryrear: 31:11

Always happy to geek out on agile marketing anytime.

Eric Dickmann: 31:14

Okay. Great. Thank you again.

Andrea Fryrear: 31:16

Thank you.

Eric Dickmann: 31:19

Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. For more episodes, go to fiveechelon.com/podcast to subscribe through your podcast player of choice. And if you'd like to develop consistent lead flow and a highly effective marketing strategy, visit fiveechelon.com to learn more about our Virtual CMO consulting services.