The Virtual CMO

How to Expand Your Team with Digital Freelancers and Content Creators with Michael Fleischner

March 11, 2021 Eric Dickmann, Michael Fleischner Season 4 Episode 6
The Virtual CMO
How to Expand Your Team with Digital Freelancers and Content Creators with Michael Fleischner
Show Notes Transcript

In part 6 of our Masterclass Series, host Eric Dickmann interviews Michael Fleischner. As an entrepreneur, marketer, and author, Michael Fleischner is the Founder of Big Fin SEO, a search engine optimization and digital marketing agency based in Robbinsville, New Jersey. 

He is also the author of a number of books including "SEO Made Simple," now in its 7th edition, and hosts a weekly podcast titled, “The Digital Freelancers.” of which Eric was a recent guest: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-freelancers/id1485095993?i=1000495420261

Michael is a Past-President for the American Marketing Association of New Jersey and currently serves on an AMA national board.

For additional resources on this episode and from our other episodes in this Masterclass Series, visit https://fiveechelon.com/masterclass

For more information about Eric Dickmann and The Five Echelon Group, visit https://fiveechelon.com/

For more information about Michael Fleischner and Big Fin SEO, visit https://bigfinseo.com

Listen to The Digital Freelancers podcast at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-freelancers/id1485095993

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Eric Dickmann:

Hey, Michael, welcome to the virtual CMO podcast. I'm so glad you could join us today.

Michael Fleischner:

So glad to be here, Eric really excited to be talking to your listeners today and really just excited to be talking about market marketing in a new year. That gets me really jazzed.

Eric Dickmann:

I know it's a, it's hard to believe this past year, you know, 2020 was pretty chaotic. And I think it changed a lot of norms that we're used to in business. And so it's going to be very interesting to see how 2021 works out. And I think that's one of the reasons that we're doing this masterclass series is you're all around building out a strategic marketing plan. Because I think it's a great time for marketers to really consider how they've been, uh, acting in the past, what they've been doing, and really try to figure out a way to better coordinate their efforts, to get the most success out of their marketing programs. And, uh, so I'm really great full for you being on the show here today. If you would just give the audience a quick summary of, uh, of your background and tell them a little bit about yourself.

Michael Fleischner:

Sure. There's certainly a lot to unpack there. You know, I think most relevant for this audience is I'm a lifetime marketer. I started out in corporate marketing. I did that for many years, and then I moved to, um, kind of the agency side. I had my own little agency I exited out of that then decided to go back into corporate America, to run marketing marketing teams, and then eventually start my own agency again. So my expertise is really around digital marketing, specifically SEO search engine optimization. But, you know, along the way, Eric, which I know we'll be talking about in some detail today, uh, I've really grown. Uh, excited, I guess, about the, the new environment in which we live and work and being able to get work done via freelancing and freelancers. So I know. Uh, previously in your master class, you've talked about strategic planning and messaging and all of these things that kind of lead up to the doing. So it's creating content, it's building websites, it's doing search engine optimization, paid search, social media, and all of that can be done in a very different way today than it's been done in the past. So I'm really excited to be sharing that with your audience and, uh, you know, today my agency is big fin SEO. Uh, again, Digital marketing, but we've also created some software to help freelancers. Uh, work more efficiently. So a report hopper, uh, is a piece of software that I created with a partner. To improve reporting a freelancers to clients. So as we kind of get into the discussion today, we're going to talk about like, what are some of the most important things you need to know if you're a freelancer yourself or you're working with. Freelancers managing freelance freelancers. Uh, trying to interact with freelancers. And one of those aspects is how do you show or illustrate the work that's being done and the results. So lots to talk about today.

Eric Dickmann:

Yeah, I think this is going to be a very interesting conversation because in previous episodes, we talked a little bit about building out your brand story and why that's so important. And once you've developed your brand story, really creating some compelling market messaging to then go out and explain to the marketplace, what your products and services do, why are they different from the competitors and really what the value proposition is? You know, um, if, if you haven't seen a door, our audience hasn't seen it. I would encourage everybody to go back and look at Steve jobs, original introduction of the iPhone. You know, we just celebrated the anniversary of that the other day. And so I saw a lot of commentators bringing that up again. And so I actually, this week I went back and watched it and it's a masterful presentation. Because he just nails the fact that there was a problem that others in the industry hadn't really addressed the problem and that this new device, this iPhone that was coming out was completely looking at the problem in a different way. And the way that he walks through that step-by-step is just masterful. And I think it's a marketing plan in a. In a presentation it's well worth the time to, uh, to take a look at, but you know, as we talk about this whole idea of content, You know, you work with a lot of freelancers. Uh, you do things with your own agency. What do you think makes good content.

Michael Fleischner:

I think what makes good content really follows the rubric that you've already set out, which is understanding that as marketers, we do one thing and we do one thing well, which is solving problems. And that's what, uh, Apple does, uh, you know, the iPhone solved the problem or multiple problems about usability and how difficult things were to use. And here they come along with, with a simple solution. And I think good content does the same good content understands the challenge of your clients. What problems are they trying to solve and really helping to navigate them through to the solution. And that's extremely important. So when people say what makes good content, the answer should be, it depends. And what does it depend on? It depends on what are the issues that your prospects, your customers, people in your niche are struggling with. Because I always have a saying, which is the trend is your friend. And, you know, a lot of people think that they're smart or cute talking about maybe something on the bleeding edge, but if no, one's talking about it, you're not going to have an audience for it. So, you know, this goes back to a blue ocean strategy versus red ocean strategy. And in some ways that doesn't really work on the content front. That's my opinion, because if you're out in this blue ocean where no one else is talking about it, you don't have an audience. So you have to find kind of the middle ground between blue ocean and red ocean. I don't know what that's called, but in that area, you're starting to talk about something that not a ton of people are talking about, but people know about. And when you can do that, when you can find that sweet. spot. Oftentimes that content that's aligned to all the work that you know, people have been doing. And you've been coaching through the masterclass, Eric. Around, you know, what is unique about your product or service? What's unique about your viewpoint when you write and produce content, whether that's print or digital. So a lot of things to consider there, but ultimately good content. It's, it's kinda like, you know, you'll know it when you see it. And the reason why is because if you're the target audience, it's going to resonate with you and it's going to be meaningful.

Eric Dickmann:

You know, there was a time. It doesn't seem like that long ago, but it probably was where, you know, our marketing team would put together a couple of nice power point decks. They would build some hard copy collateral, you know, there was a website and whatever, but. Now things have really changed when you start to talk about content in the context of SEO in driving interest, and this whole idea that you talked about, where you have to be part of a conversation that's actually happening. Because if you're too far out there, nobody is going to find that conversation that you're having. And so this idea of. Building a regular stream of content, whether that's blog posting, whether that's social media, whether it's updating your website, you know, building pillar pages, other things like that. There is just this need now to create really volumes of content so that you can find that audience.

Michael Fleischner:

Yeah. And I think, you know, I'll use an example, a client we're working with actually, uh, we just had a call with them yesterday. Uh, there really early on in the process around. An emerging topic, something that not a lot of people are talking about in their industry and where we focused was not so much on the volume of content, but on creating Seminole content, evergreen content. And we're not talking about a 350 word blog post. We're talking about a 2000 word article. That really goes into detail about this particular, particular topic, the history of the topic links out to resources related to the topic and references. And the reason we're doing that is because it really is that blue ocean strategy. So they have to lay a strong enough foundation, much. Like you just mentioned, pillar pages, Eric on a website, right? When you're thinking about new content from a blogging perspective in particular. You have to really start where you are and have a view of where the market is and meet that demand. So if we were much further into this market, Then I would probably say, okay, well now it's time to rethink our content and go beyond blog posts. And maybe now we're doing a video reviews of all the different providers and how you can differentiate one from the other or tips and strategies on how to, uh, make the most of your budget in relation to this particular topic. So, you know, all of that really depends on market maturity. And again, always, you know, going back to the strategy piece to understand what is the goal and what is the ideal way to get there, given your particular product or service and where you are in the lifecycle of that particular product or service.

Eric Dickmann:

And I'm glad you mentioned some of those content types, because I do want to drill down into that a little bit more, but before we go there, You know, I think as I've dealt with many businesses, one of the challenges that they have around content, and one of the reasons why I think this discussion is so valuable today. Is that, especially when they're writing some of them find that pretty intimidating. What topics do I write about, you know, what format do I put them in? Is it on my webpage? Is it in a blog? Is it in some kind of a downloadable piece of collateral? And I think it scares people to the point where they just stall out. They don't know what steps to take next. And for many of the people that are in our audience who are small and mid-sized businesses. Sometimes you can have a fairly small marketing team. Maybe it's just a couple of junior level people, maybe who do you want to even have a journalism background or writing background? So they don't know where to go with the content. And that's one of the real benefits that I can see with working with freelancers is you can augment your team. How do you see that playing out with the people that you work with? The people that you talk to. On your podcast, the digital freelancer podcast. How do you see these freelancers interacting with existing marketing teams?

Michael Fleischner:

Yeah, that's really the beauty of freelancing. That's why I'm such a freelancing nerd. It's because, you know, years ago when I was on the corporate side, I had large marketing teams, 12, 14, 18 people. And now if you go into corporate America, your marketing teams are more like three or four people. And the reason is because in the past they were freelancers that, you know, they did a little work. Um, In a given area or maybe they were a little more broad stroke. But what has happened is because there are so many freelancing platforms available today. And really, I guess the nature of work has changed more and more people in addition to their full-time jobs are also saying, Hey, I want to make a little extra money. I have my nights and weekends available. I have my lunch hour available. What can I do? How can I lend my skills out? So what we find happening is that the quality of your typical freelancer today. Versus just a few years ago is significantly greater. Meaning, you know, you can just like, uh, the fractional CMO, uh, type of, uh, organization where you're getting access to people who are extremely qualified that otherwise you probably, especially if you're a small business, wouldn't be able to afford. So this idea of freelancing is really designed so that when you have a specific need, you can bring in a qualified person and pay much less than you would to bring that person on full time and pay benefits. And, you know, all of the other things that go along with it. So. For me, I like freelancing because especially when it comes to digital marketing. They're very specific skillsets to find someone who's actually really good at running Google ads. For example. That's not easy. You're not gonna find somebody. Uh, you know, internationally who really does it on a small scale, meaning for small clients, you need to find someone let's say who works at an agency. Who's running paid search campaigns all day, every day, across multiple industries. And has, let's say, you know, five to 10 years of experience, and you can do that today with the freelancing model. And you know, that was much more difficult in the past. So freelancing allows you to really find a specific audience. Or I'm sorry, a specific skillset for your need or your audience. And, uh, we see this across virtually every aspect of digital marketing from digital ads to social media management, to content development, uh, writers and writing editors, um, video production, the list goes on and on and on, but these are experts that you can use really on a part-time basis. And Eric, that's the other aspect that we haven't really talked about yet, but. You know, it used to be that if you needed help, you would either hire an agency for a lot of money or you would hire someone full time. There really was. No. Solution in the middle. And that's what freelancing provides. Right? It's a short term. It could be for a project or it could be someone that you're using, you know, for certain number of hours a month. And you have that flexibility.

Eric Dickmann:

I think a great example is, you know, as a homeowner, right, there are projects that you decide you can do yourself. And then, you know, the air conditioning breaks. So you call in a repair man, who's got a specialization in fixing heating and cooling systems, or you need a new roof and you hire a roofer. There are things that you can do on your own, but if you want something done right. Sometimes the best thing to do is really go out and hire people who have very specific skills in that area, because I see far too many companies trying to do everything on their own and ended up doing none of it very well. And it just ends up wasting time, wasting money and hindering the growth of a company. And so I think, you know, we live in such a small world right now. You can hire people that live a half a world away sometimes at very, very competitive rates. And by doing so, you're getting somebody with some significant skills that you might not have. And that allows you to really accelerate some of your, your marketing plans. And I'm glad you sort of mentioned this whole idea of. Fractional executive or what I do, which is a virtual CMO. Because there is then this effort that you have to wrangle all these outside resources, right? Somebody has to be watching over the people that you hire, whether you're outsourcing to an agency and various freelancers or other companies, how do you recommend that people do that? How do you add that to your marketing plan so that you can ensure consistency across people doing different things?

Michael Fleischner:

I think there are really two things there that are extremely important to keep in mind. The first is if you are working with freelancers or starting to work with freelancers, make them part of your team. These are people who you want to invest in. You want to bring them into the fold, uh, you know, be transparent, focus your efforts around making sure that they feel like they're part of your team. And this is something I think we all. really accelerated over the last year. And that is, you know, most of these freelancers are, all of these freelancers are going to be virtual in nature. So, you know, you probably have other employees who are virtual in nature. If you're sending out an email, include the freelancer. If you're having a zoom call, include the freelancer, make them part of your team. I think that's extremely important. So I would say that's number one. And number two is have systems in place that allow you to manage your specific projects. And I'm talking about base camp. I'm talking about a Trello, I'm talking about any project management, Kanban there, dozens of these things, um, you know, a sauna. Uh, uh, at LaSeon or agile, there are lots of different software tools that can be used to manage the tasks that freelancers are doing in relation to overall projects. And that way, again, there's transparency and that freelancer can see if he or she has worked to do what the contingencies are on other projects and other people that are part of your team. So again, if You're focused on really working effectively with freelancers one. You want to make them part of your team and to, you want to include them in project management software or project management tools that your organization is using. And if you're not currently using any of those tools, um, Eric, you know, there's so many of them available today and they're reasonably inexpensive. Uh, so, so even if you're just starting out, it's worth investing in those tools, just so everyone can be, uh, you know, involved. with the project and see what's going on.

Eric Dickmann:

I think that's so spot on. And I would also just add to that, you know, we're, we're doing this master class. Under the umbrella of creating a strategic marketing plan. And one of the reasons that it's so important to get that plan in place. Is you don't want to have to spend your time trying to figure out how to keep these people busy. You want to have a plan in place so that you know exactly what everybody is supposed to be doing. You want to be way ahead of the curve, because the worst thing is to sort of have people that you've hired. You've brought on board and you're scrambling to try to figure out something for them to do.

Michael Fleischner:

Yeah. And I would add to that to Eric and say, you know, when you find the right freelancer and although it's much easier to find good freelancers today, there are a lot of things that going into finding the right freelancer, you know, do they understand your industry, your organization, uh, from a culture perspective, do you work well with them? Are they independent or do you have to hand hold them? There are a lot of things that you, as a manager, as a leader are going to have to work through in order to find the right Lancer, but when you do you want to hold on to that freelancer? And that means that if there's a lull in projects, to your point, Eric, are there other ways to engage them or are there other things that will help move the ball forward? Um, you know, focused around that strategic plan and the specific goals you've set. Or do you continue to keep them on knowing that the projects are gonna, you know, pick up again? And I say that because it's really important to think about freelancers, as you would think about building your team. You want high performers on your team. You want freelancers who are high performers, and remember they're freelancing to make a living. And a lot of people forget that. Right. So they're making a living and if they're not getting it from you, they're getting it from somewhere, someone else. So if you find that right freelancer and you want to hang on to them, you definitely want to make sure that the projects and the work keep coming so that they dedicate more and more of their time to you and your organization.

Eric Dickmann:

And I think, you know, we talked a little bit about different content types where freelancers could help. And I think sometimes the content type also determines sort of how freelancers can be used on your team. So for example, if you're hiring out a web developer to do some specific work on your website, well, obviously once that work on the website is done or gets to a stopping point, Those aren't necessarily skills that transfer easily to other areas. Versus if you hire a writer, for example, they could be writing social media posts, they could be writing, uh, pieces of collateral. They could be doing blog posts. There are a lot of different ways that they can be used. So if I'd love to go through some of these content types and just talk about it. So obviously your website is your home, your digital home on the web. It's almost every customer that you're going to interact with is probably going to visit your website at some point. And there are so. Many people out there who offer various web development skills and resources. What do you say to somebody who is saying, Hey, I need some help with my website. I need to update it. Maybe I should go get a freelancer to help. What, what kind of things would you tell them to watch out for, or look for?

Michael Fleischner:

Well, I think the advice at least initially would be go for it. You know, I'm a big believer. Keep your website updated at your 24 seven three 65 sales person. And if it doesn't look good, if it doesn't respond well, if it's not mobile responsive. Uh, if it's not optimized from a search engine optimization perspective. Um, it's really not doing what it's supposed to do. So trying to find someone to, uh, work on your website. My advice would be really understand what it is you're looking to have done. You know, are you looking for the site site just to be optimized from an SEO perspective? Are you looking for an upgrade to the existing site? Meaning maybe a new look and feel. And that should determine really what you want, because once you go down that rabbit hole, it can get pretty complicated quickly. Meaning if you talk to one freelancer, they may say, Oh, it needs to be on a completely different platform. And we need to change the host and we need to do all of these things. But if you were to take a step back and say, well, what is it that what's the problem here? What is it that really bothers me about the website? And if the answer is simply, well, it looks dated, then ask yourself the next question, which is. Is that all I want to change or are there other things I want to change as well? And specifically you may want to change, maybe you're on a Wix and you want to change to a WordPress platform, or maybe you want to use, uh, some other methodology to host and create your site. And if you don't know how to have that discussion, that's part of the way to find a freelancer is to interview freelancers and ask them what they think and what approach they would take. and that would definitely give you some insight into their thought process and perhaps what you should do.

Eric Dickmann:

And I think that one of the things that I've seen from clients where they get stuck is they will hire a technical resource to work on their website. But think about your website. What is it? A website is a series of HTML pages. Right. But then there's imagery that goes along with that. There may be some videos that you want to have maybe something that's in your hero image or some product explainer videos. And then obviously there's the text that you need, you know, that explains what your product or service is. And then as you mentioned, there's SEO, when you've got sort of the technical side of SEO, is your website optimized? Is it mobile? Responsive? And. then you've also got the SEO to really drive organic traffic to your website, which extends beyond just the technical parameters. It's really the content that you're creating. So I see sometimes, uh, you know, again, under this umbrella topic of building out a plan, you really have to think about what it is that you're going to do, because oftentimes the technical person who's going to build those web pages is not going to be a graphic designer. Who's going to be able to create the imagery. That's going to bring that webpage to light, or they're not going to be the video producer. That's going to be able to take a video and say, here's some explainer video too. Uh, talk about our product and service. So it's, it's a team of people when you undertake some of these projects.

Michael Fleischner:

Absolutely Eric. And, you know, I think the one lesson that I learned, uh, now having done this for hundreds of clients, if not a thousand clients, is I always start with design. And the reason I start with this now, that's not to say we don't understand the full scope and the functionality that someone wants, but if you're going to design a website, either from scratch or make a major update, At the end of the day, most people are visual. And the functionality can be built practically on any platform, but the overall look and feel is personal. It's subjective. And it really needs to align with the vision that the owner of that business has. And that's why, you know, in many cases in the past, we were just kind of dive in and say, Oh, we want our site to be able to do this. And it goes to the developers and no one is happy because it just doesn't look good. And although that sounds somewhat shallow, that's the reality. It needs to match the vision that that owner, that business owner has for their company. And it's always great to start with design on the front end. And again, you might find some freelancers, uh, who are particularly good at design, um, and not development, which is usually the case or vice versa developers who just aren't good at design, which we see more frequently. Uh, but they are two separate and distinct things. So even if you're engaging with a freelancer who says, Oh, I can do everything you really need to understand. What's their approach. How are they going to meet both the. Kind of design element, the usability element, and then the functional piece of the website. Does it have the functionality that you're looking for and, uh, You know, another thing that's happening today? A freelancer sites like freelancer.com or Upwork. Uh, they not only connect you with individual freelancers, but digital agencies that do freelance work. And I know that sounds a little confusing, but in essence, what it means is you can hire an agency to do project work, as opposed to this long ongoing commitment. Uh, where you'll be wedded to them for a year or two years or whatever the case might be. So to Eric's point, you want to think about all of the elements that you need to address and make sure that your freelancer can handle it.

Eric Dickmann:

And I'm glad you started to mention some of the places where you could find freelancers because, uh, you could certainly put a resume or a job posting out on LinkedIn or indeed, or one of these places, but that's more of a traditional part-time or full-time hire kind of opportunity. And you mentioned some of these sites that have sprung up like Upwork and Fiverr. Um, and there's a real benefit to that, right? Because you've got a worldwide pool of people to choose from, but it does come at a little bit of a cost because there's, you know, these companies are taking a share of that person's, uh, uh, pay. So w yeah. Yeah. So when you're looking at that, where do you recommend people? Like let's keep on with our website example. So you might be looking for a graphic designer. You might. Be looking for some technical expertise on actually building out the HTML and you might be looking for some, some SEO specialists, where are some places that you would go to find these experts?

Michael Fleischner:

Yeah, I definitely think, um, Upwork is a great resource when you have a real project. And I'll differentiate it by saying, let's think about the website for a minute. If you're going to go build a website for a client or your own website, and let's say you do not have a team, you need to build a team of freelancers. I think Upwork is good because that's really, I think the sweet spot of Upwork it's developers, it's designers, it's people who are digital marketers, and you can often find a solution that'll bring together for you, multiple people to deliver on a project. Now that's very different than let's say you mentioned Fiverr, Eric, you know, Fiverr is a great site site, a lot of qualified people on that site. But for me, for example, if I didn't have a designer, I would probably go there to get a logo made or to get a, um, a graphic image created. And the reason is because five or seems a lot more transactional.

Eric Dickmann:

Okay.

Michael Fleischner:

Now there is one caveat though. If you were to find a designer who maybe just does an exceptional job, knowing what you now know about freelancers, that they're making their living. By all these small projects, you can ask them to take on bigger projects and be mindful. That means they don't have to source a lot of new customers. They can get more business from you and that should fill more of their time. So, whether it's Fiverr or Upwork, the same kind of algorithm applies, which is, you know, try to find exactly what you're looking for. And ultimately when you do find that person, give them more and more of your business. And, you know, the last thing I would say on a website development, which is kind of the topic here is that you really want to do your due diligence. The way Upwork works. Is that you create a project and when you submit that project, you get bids on that project. And what I'll say is not all bids are created equally. And that requires you to really do, first of all, create a posting that's clear, concise, and thorough. Don't just say, I need a new website because you're going to get a bunch of garbage responses. But if you specifically articulate, this is what I'm looking for. Here are my company colors. Here's the exist, a link to the existing site. Here's the functionality that I'd like built in. Then you can get quotes that are going to be just much more reasonable and you're not going to have scope creep and you're not going to have the freelancer come back and say, well, we didn't agree to that. And this is a lot more work than I thought. So you really need to do, do your own work upfront. And then when you do get those freelancers reaching out to you, look at their prior work, interview them, you know, actually schedule a zoom call. Um, look at the reviews they've gotten from other people via other projects. That's the benefit of using a platform where there's a history. For that freelancer. So give those things some thought before you just kind of jump in and throw it over the wall.

Eric Dickmann:

Do the platforms themselves provide an additional layer of security in terms of payments. You know, you could have people from all over the world, right? So paying in different currencies, you know, making sure that somebody just doesn't disappear on you. What are some of the, the securities that are provided by the platforms?

Michael Fleischner:

Yeah, that's one of the things I really like Eric about Upwork in particular. And I mentioned that platform personally, for our agency. That's the go-to platform for very specific work that needs to get done because it's been around the longest. Actually it merged with another site or maybe renamed after quiet acquiring E-Lance. Probably 10, 15 years ago. So they've been around a really long time. And they've put those security measures in place. Specifically. What I like is the way the project works is once you agree to a project and you've accepted the vendor, So you've kind of proposed, Hey, I'm willing to spend X. And the vendor says that's great. I agree. Based on the project you described, you can then set up milestones and fund those milestones separately.

Eric Dickmann:

Yup.

Michael Fleischner:

And for example, website development, maybe the first milestone is to set up a hosting account. Great one milestone. Maybe the next one is to, um, install WordPress on that hosting account. That's the second milestone. And you continue all the way down so that you, in collaboration with this freelancer can create and manage expectations. And I think that's so important. Um, you know, we've got a client just signed up with us, you know, we're three days in and they want us optimizing their content. They don't have a URL. They don't have hosting. They don't have a website. And, and we need to, which is fine. I understand. Uh, trust me, I'm the most urgent guy on the planet. I'm a little crazy about it, but at the same time, you have to follow a process with specific milestones. And really bring everybody along so that there are no missteps. Um, someone doesn't say, well, you know, you never told me about that. Or, you know, I just assumed you could do it. And now you're telling me we can't. So those milestones can be laid out and you can pay using Upwork by the milestone. So let's say an overall project I'll use round numbers is$1,000. And you have 10 milestones, you would. Basically, they call it escrow. Right? You put money in escrow, which means in holding. So you fund the milestone, but you don't release the money. Until it's actually been done. And that gives you this added layer of security that you're not going to get ripped off. You're not gonna, you know, send somebody a check for$2,500 and they disappear on you. And that's why milestones are important. So, you know, my recommendation again, if you are going to use a platform, really understand the platform and look at best practices for using those platforms to make sure that you're safe. And also that the freelancer is safe. Freelancers have a risk as well. They're putting time and energy in, and if they're not getting compensated. Uh, that's not fair to them either. So it really does help both sides of that equation.

Eric Dickmann:

I think too, there's a temptation when you get on some of these platforms, especially if you've never gone to a marketplace like that and seen some of the resources that are available. I mean, there's a ton of people that are on there. There are a ton of services that are provided. But if you haven't sort of dealt with some of these developing economies, you could be shocked at how inexpensive some services really are. And there are risks with that too, right? In, in doing business in time zones that are far away, that may be out of sync with the way your team is working. There are a lot of factors in, so it shouldn't just be driven by cost.

Michael Fleischner:

Agreed. Agreed. And again, that's why it's important to look at past work, to look at references, to look at reviews and what people are saying. All of that's important. And actually, Eric, you bring up a really good point, which is, you know, think about working with an international resource. For some people that's not going to work. They need somebody available when they're available. Let's say they're, you know, Eastern standard time here in the United States, it's gotta be nine to five or eight to five or eight to six or whatever your hours are. But for other people, they want their freelancers working while they're sleeping, so they can roll in the next morning and have that article written or have that video produced or edited. And that can work to your advantage as well. So not only do you get the advantage of lower cost in most instances, but you also get this workflow benefit if you do it correctly. So again, a lot of things to consider, but you know, my, my. You know, overall feeling is you really can't go wrong. If you start small, I call it the crawl walk, run. And even if you want to do a huge website project, start with, you know, something as simple as logo creation or someone researching some themes that they would recommend based on your. A particular business or current site, and that gives you a chance to really experiment and say, are they responsive? Did they do what I asked them to do? Uh, how am I finding the platform? Is it easy to use so on and so forth. And by going through that process, you can. Evaluate someone for$50,$100, whatever the case might be. And that also minimizes your risk.

Eric Dickmann:

I think that's a great point. Uh, yeah, you want to dip your toe in the water before plunging in and just make sure that this is going to be the kind of person that you're satisfied with their work ethic and the quality of work that they produce. You know, this has really been a fascinating discussion. I think we could go on for hours about the, the power of it. I certainly know that in my own business, I use freelancers all the time to help with content creation and writing and doing some work on the web. And it's been game changing for me because. as I need resources, I can bring them in. And then, you know, when there's a time, I don't need them. Uh, you know, they're, they're on call for somebody else. And so it's been great. You know, I'd love just to wrap up our interview today for you to tell folks just a little bit more about, uh, big fin SEO, correct.

Michael Fleischner:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you,

Eric Dickmann:

a podcast. So they can find both of these resources on the web.

Michael Fleischner:

Yeah, so big fin SEO is big fin seo.com. Again, full service digital agency. Uh, we're here to help you look good online. And, um, we've been around for about 10 plus years. So, uh, can definitely share some case studies with you. And, uh, you know, uh, Eric mentioned the digital freelancers podcast. If you are a freelancer, if you're looking for a place to really dialogue and communicate around freelancing the good, the bad, the ugly, uh, you could always check us out at the digital freelancers. And of course, if you need tools to really help you with reporting to clients, I recommend report hopper.com.

Eric Dickmann:

Michael. That's great. I really appreciate your time. I've been a guest on the digital freelancers podcast. It's a great show. You're giving the hot, lots of visibility to people on that program, which I think is great. And I appreciate you being part of this masterclass. You know, we started out talking about the importance of having a strategic marketing plan, and I think the ability to create really good content, to be able to scale your team, to be able to bring in experts who really have some authority in the areas of their expertise is so important to being able to grow. So I appreciate your thoughts today and everything that you've shared with the audience.

Michael Fleischner:

Thank you so much, Eric. Appreciate you.

Eric Dickmann:

Thanks again.