The Virtual CMO

How to Negotiate with Business Clients with Mike Lander

May 17, 2021 Eric Dickmann, Mike Lander Season 5 Episode 3
The Virtual CMO
How to Negotiate with Business Clients with Mike Lander
Show Notes Transcript

In episode 69, host Eric Dickmann interviews Mike Lander. Mike has had an eclectic career including engineering, project management, high-value consulting, and entrepreneurship. His start in life was like any kid growing up in a working-class family. His first job was at 16 when he left school and joined an engineering company as an apprentice. The remarkable bit was at the age of 42, Mike raised several million pounds from a UK bank and grew a consultancy to over 120 people.

Mike is an accomplished entrepreneur, Chairman, Chartered Director, and seasoned Board Advisor. Mike now specializes in helping suppliers negotiate better commercial deals with big clients, especially when Procurement gets involved.

For show notes and a  list of resources mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://fiveechelon.com/how-to-negotiate-with-business-clients-s5e3/

A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.

The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at: 

https://fiveechelon.com


Eric Dickmann:

Hey, Mike, welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast in our live stream. Thanks so much for joining us here today.

Mike Lander:

Great to me, right. Thank you for inviting me.

Eric Dickmann:

Yeah, this is going to be great because we love to cover a different, a lot of different topics on this show. And we're going to get into negotiating skills today. And that's a topic we haven't really covered before. So I'm really interested to sort of get into the weeds on you or with you on that. Yeah, no, that's great. So it would be great to just kind of set up the conversation today by giving the audience just a brief background and history on yourself. How did you get started as an entrepreneur and work your way into negotiating?

Mike Lander:

So, um, it kind of brief really, even as a kid, I kind of want it. Can I run my own business. That's seen pregnant on TV in the UK. Uh, and was fascinated by kind of running a business. But my family had nothing to do. Of running businesses. We weren't entrepreneurs. We didn't know any entrepreneurs. I think it's. Important kind of point for your role. For your audience and your listeners. Yeah. Finding mentors in life is really important and being open to learning. I'm what I call a bit of a lifelong learner.

Eric Dickmann:

That's great.

Mike Lander:

learning. I'm always finding out things I'm always going on courses. Trying to educate myself. And, um, yeah, so I, um, Eventually at the age of about where was I? So I was engineer. I, um, when is the engineering school and engineering college, uh, and then I did an MBA. Uh, and the MBA can change my career path altogether. And then I got into mainstream consulting. Very very high-end big ticket consulting, selling half million pound million pound deals. Uh, when I was at KPMG. Um, and then I went freelancing as a jobbing consultant. Um, and I thought I was an entrepreneur at that point, but actually I was a freelancer. And that was okay. But the realization that that was really important about how you brand yourself. And how you market yourself. Is be a specialist there, niche do something very unusual for your clients. Uh, don't pretend you're something you're not getting. Um, and I happened to work for consulting company and they were looking to sell it. And I bought it off them.

Eric Dickmann:

Oh, wow.

Mike Lander:

yeah Yeah I raised three three and a half million pound of debts And back in the day when you could the company And I doubled in size to 120 people 20 million uh revenues Uh very profitable And yeah so that's how I kinda got into really being a a scale entrepreneur

Eric Dickmann:

You know it's interesting And I'd love to get your comments on this is you talk about you know going into big consulting KPMG having an MBA as a background obviously there's a lot of applicability there right There's there's training that they teach you in business school that applies to the corporate world But when you sort of are a small business owner an entrepreneur how much of that do you think is really useful and how much of it is a different set of education that you really have to learn You talked about being a lifelong learner Have did you have you really found that there are different things that you needed to learn running a business yourself

Mike Lander:

Absolutely Yeah I mean I think the NBA uh was a critical piece of me You know back to what I said I was an engineer engineering project manager was what Monica the training was and I wanted to run businesses So I knew nothing about sales nothing about marketing and nothing about finance um but knew quite a lot about R and D and operations Um and so did my MBA And I think anyone that's done an MBA or something like that When you finish that you feel like you've got this huge wealth of knowledge that you want to deploy instantly into the world And the calls it's just a set of frameworks

Eric Dickmann:

Sure

Mike Lander:

what I've learned you know all those years later And there are 56 So uh you know many years as did my MBA But what you learn is is that the frameworks are brilliant because frameworks help your thinking I think Warren Buffett's or Warren Buffett's partner says you know Yes like mental models And it's really important in life to have a mental model That you can put things into to help you make decisions And that was the kind of change was that Now having the models is one thing but you've got to apply them in real life situations because life Doesn't work out like the textbooks Uh when your tools Uh I mean the biggest thing I learned Eric was I mean finance for me If I had one message for any entrepreneur that's building a company Understanding cashflow At a granular level Is critical Without that you have no business

Eric Dickmann:

That's really interesting for me to hear you say that because I remember when I was an undergrad there were two things or two classes that really bothered me One was calculus because it was like what is the point of learning calculus I'm never going to use this but it was really learning how to think in a different way That's what it was teaching you is they've never really sold it as that but it was trying to teach you how to think in a more analytical way And the other one was accounting because it was the process of doing the books but it didn't tell you what the numbers meant So I knew sort of what column to put things in but is this a good number or is this a bad number That's something they never went into And that would have been incredibly valuable

Mike Lander:

Exactly right And I think you know when you apply I was very fortunate I did my MBA at a place called Cranfield in the UK Eileen Cranfield is aimed out Typically it gets a lot of engineers um and ex military people that are doing career changes Uh and so they make it very very pragmatic for people about how you take your existing experience and send it into a more commercial environments And our finance lecturer was outstanding Absolutely outstanding And I could I can still walk in now to NFD in any size of company and at least have a conversation

Eric Dickmann:

Yeah

Mike Lander:

You know I'm not going to outsmart them and don't want to ever Art smells anyone particularly personally But I'm not going to out-think them about anything But what I will be able to do is have a language I think it gives you a um A language to talk to some of the bounce And without that language without the common framework how do you talk to a CFO in one of your clients who's talking about you know Cashflow management working capital management The importance of payment terms all of those things that they talk about Yeah Balance sheet movements How do you have CapEx versus OPEX Even now just talking about it You know Having that conversation with your clients Good example about trading CapEx or OPEX If someone's backed by a VC or private equity firm they often want to improve the bottom line EBITDA Because you've got this multiplier effect when you sell your company Well if when you're selling your services And when you're marketing your services if you can package them in a way which is you spend a big chunk of capital but the operating cost going forward to very low That's a massive value multiplier for your clients If you don't know finance you wouldn't know to have the conversation

Eric Dickmann:

What's interesting about that to me too is whether you're talking about finance whether you're talking about marketing or sales really speaking the language of the people that you're dealing with whether they're inside the company or prospects or existing customers speaking their language really helps you find some common ground right It helps us establish that trust so that you can take the conversation in different directions But it's so clear if you've got an Expertise in one area or the other and you sort of barge into a conversation where you don't have expertise It it's obvious almost immediately

Mike Lander:

It is obvious immediately I always say to people you know and I'm working with clients or speaking at conferences or just in a workshop together Yeah I know the limitations of my knowledge I don't tend to stray into areas that I don't understand but I'm inquisitive I'll say to people I mean like yeah I mean Interesting Eric about if he looked to be fascinating in your views about the last 20 years of marketing Because back in the day we used to write for leadership papers and we'd write them and we print them and we put them in the post To clients and then clients read them They phone us Um and of course now that world's changed And it's changed so dramatically that I don't I don't understand truly digital marketing at all I know some basic things I know some basics about social media but I'm nowhere near anywhere near being even can like professionally competent in those areas And I think if you looked at CMOs now In their kind of late thirties mid forties I suspect a lot of them are quite challenged by it's moving so quickly How did they get their head around the old world versus the new world and how you manage that Like complex mix

Eric Dickmann:

You know there was a time when you did those white papers you could send them out and somebody would be willing to invest 10 15 20 minutes of their time to read through that because it was usually based on some research and some

Mike Lander:

That's right

Eric Dickmann:

now Peop now people want you know give me three bullet points at the beginning that I can get the gist of what it is if I really need to I'll dig into this and look at it further But there it's very hard to get 15 20 minutes of somebody's time to read through any kind of report like that anymore

Mike Lander:

It is a great and in fact what's interesting is these formats What's happening now is I think people are quite happy to engage in a podcast conversation a webinar conversation a small mastermind group where you've got You know a dialogue with someone who's got some expertise They seem more willing to do that than they were maybe like five 10 years ago

Eric Dickmann:

Yeah absolutely I think people are just so overwhelmed with information but especially during this time of COVID people misconnection and I think a webinar or whether it's a zoom conference a live stream or clubhouse has been in the news a lot lately in the engagement it's getting people are just really looking for that engagement They don't want a lot of information They want that engagement And you know it's interesting because I know that in your background uh you've had roles in Procurement and for many small and mid-sized businesses that that we typically talk about here on this podcast Maybe they don't have a dedicated procurement officer or somebody within the company that does that That's the job of the owner the CFO or you know his direct reports to To uh to make those kinds of decisions do you say to somebody who has procurement as part of their role in terms of how they need to look at engaging with people who are trying to sell them something

Mike Lander:

That's a great question Um so I think if someone's got all of those multiple hat roles Uh and one of them is that the buyer for the supply base of that organization Um I think the first thing to do is say take a step back look at the data The first thing that any procurement person does going into any organization is what am I looking at What's the category that I'm looking at What are the categories of spend that I'm looking at How much do we spend with different suppliers How long would the supplier has been with us What's the scope of work that these suppliers provide So the first thing is set Get some data have a think And start to visualize that data in a meaningful way you'll probably find in the first time you do that is if the supply base has not been what I call touched for five 10 years not negotiated or looked at There'll be a tail in all the categories When I say category there's marketing there's infrastructure services there's it That's healthcare Those are categories in my book you look at those in any size company you'll see A Pareto curve So what happens is he's quite quickly You know you get two or three big suppliers and then it runs off and you might have five or 10 20 even 50 smaller suppliers And the first thing you start doing is saying I'm probably not getting the best value for money for my company Maybe I should start consolidating So for your listeners that are kind of like Yeah And organizations who are the marketing function the leaders the CMOs and they're supporting the sales teams going into win big pictures with big Browns I'd say as a stakeholder the procurement team is often not overlooked cause everyone knows they exist but they're not focused on And The if he focused on my agenda as one of the many stakeholders that you're pitching to and you thought through what's going on Well if I'm running a process And I'm buying marketing services For example I've got a very detailed view inside of what we spend who we spend it with how much we spend Um you know what the subcategories are et cetera I've also got a savings target a really important thing that um again your audience will have heard of and need to focus on during that preparation phases In a big company if you were selling to P and G For example As an SME P and G will have a big savings target for that procurement team within marketing Once you understand that then you start saying well what does that look like Well savings actually has three different categories I won't bore you with the detail now but there's nuances behind savings And if they're looking for savings you've got to work out well how am I going to deliver a solution How do I first of all find out that baseline And then how do I work out What the solution looks like to give them a saving And then you go okay well that that sounds reasonably complicated So the next thing you think about is once you get the stage of engaging with stakeholders procurement The marketing director Um and everything's in negotiation Once you get past the initial discussions Preparation is the key The value that's created in a deal that you negotiate well over half of that value is created away from the table Way before you sit down way before you start talking Because it's all about the preparation

Eric Dickmann:

So if I play a little bit back Of that back in layman's terms what you're really saying if you're a business you're doing are you're trying to do business maybe with the larger organization that has a procurement team They have goals They have objectives And as part of your sales process You need to create that win-win right You need to create something That's going to allow them to say I was able to save this amount of money or or put together this kind of a package that helps me meet my goals which may be completely outside the scope of what you would typically talk about when you're talking about your product

Mike Lander:

So win-win interesting Eric I think it's a great topic

Eric Dickmann:

Yeah well let's go ahead and do it

Mike Lander:

So I'm more and more of the opinion now 5 of deals that are done or less are win-win

Eric Dickmann:

Hmm really

Mike Lander:

What happens most of the time is I'm a professional negotiator a professional buyer If I'm facing an organization that is relatively new to this I'm going to claim far more value than I'm going to yield

Eric Dickmann:

Hmm

Mike Lander:

And that value comes in terms of the price It comes in payment terms it comes in what I'll allow you to do in terms of access to our organization's brand You know the scope of works that we agree And the danger here is is that a small company is selling to big companies If those smaller companies haven't worked out Yeah I haven't done all that preparation That homework in advance You end up winning a deal That tumor's later everyone goes reminders Why why did we agree to do all this Why is this still So unprofitable Why is everyone working 14 hour days and we're getting nowhere And it's because the negotiation went wrong

Eric Dickmann:

Hmm That's interesting too because we're also in this era of SAS right Where

Mike Lander:

Absolutely

Eric Dickmann:

Everything is on people's websites all the pricing you know this tier this tier that tier sign up for a year you save 10 and then we get into it almost seems like there's no negotiation that's even possible anymore because everything is put out there But a lot of it Revolves around hidden costs too Right We're we're going to discount it for year one And then the renewal comes we'll by the way we're not even going to email you about the renewal then suddenly you're renewed for another year at a higher rate There's there's a lot of shenanigans that are going on with SAS businesses

Mike Lander:

There are exactly right And when I talk to people about so I do a lot of training a negotiation skills training With organizations I try and commercial teams sales teams account managers account directors Um when I start talking about negotiating with their clients you know I've built a negotiation preparation Uh templates and some templates and sheets And I say look there's normally an a deal about six or seven negotiation variables That you can start talking to your clients about And just the fact of writing those variables down as I say yes there's price but there's scope of works The service level agreements there's access to brand Those payment terms I mean I've got five already You know when you write all the variables down I mean I I'm not a I'm not a DJ but I love meat But if you look at a DJ's desk and mixing desk as you move one lever up you tend to move the other one down

Eric Dickmann:

Hm

Mike Lander:

And the same thing happens in negotiations is that if your client wants something so for example they want to reduce the price You can say yep Understood You know so we're going to go from 20 K a month retainer down to 18 Cayman Latina And the next part of the conversation you should be saying is so let's just work out which part of the scope you want us to reduce And they'll look at you And go well w w w well none of it Then you say well so you just want me to basically just keep reducing the price to you Well no that'd be ridiculous Yeah So why don't we agree some objective criteria about what makes a great deal for you and for us And I say to people when you before you start negotiating get into those traps The GRI three objective criteria about what a good deal looks like Uh most train procurement negotiators or train negotiates will go It's a fact question So you've obviously done your homework You've been trained And you start to level that playing field I think that's an important part

Eric Dickmann:

Do you think that enough companies give their people the ability to have that kind of flexibility I let me give you a great example that I had happened recently to me I was looking at purchasing some software It was it was a SAS model But it was just exactly as you described it was more expensive than I wanted to pay but it was also for more users than I was ever going to need And so I said well why don't you just reduce the price And I don't need so many seats of this software and you know they hemmed and hawed they adjusted it a little bit but it never got to a point where I felt comfortable with it And then Black Friday came along and I get this email from them offering a far better deal than we were ever talked about for the full user count you know And I was like why didn't you just allow the salesperson to do that instead of waiting for this promotion to come along

Mike Lander:

Yeah So I think Negotiation limits negotiation ranges whatever you'd like to call it Um I think for the smaller more agile SAS based companies uh that are more innovative they're more flexible But if you're talking to Salesforce or Oracle or any of those big companies that now have SAS based products They have to put very tight constraints on that pricing model and on that Number of seats model because otherwise they'd have in their mind too much variation The irony is if you look at the airline industry or the car hire industry Yeah they don't have well if you're in row 47 Then C4 has only got two prices They have endless pricing because it's a dynamic pricing model And I wonder if SAS based I mean interesting I haven't thought of Eric I wonder if SAS based Uh software companies will start to adopt much more of a dynamic pricing model So the as the market as the seasons change as demand changes then the pricing goes up and down and you get a um a price for a period So you might get a price for six months That's discount against list And then it reverts back to list By the way interesting negotiation tactic for your listeners If someone starts to beat you up on price and says you were at 20 K a month retainer but I want it down at 15 K a month You could say we'll do 15 K a month For six months After which it reverts to 20 K month providing with hit our KPIs And what you do is you limit your downside risk Of that price going on for ever And that often gets missed as a negotiation tactic Time limited offers

Eric Dickmann:

So making sure that in the contract you actually put that it is reverting at this time Not that we're going to renegotiate it at that time because then it can just sort of go on forever

Mike Lander:

Exactly right Yeah And again none of these I always say to people people think that uh procurement's a bit like the police have to do what they say we're not we're just negotiating Everything's going to go Creation There are certain limits that we all have and then I'll have a Oliver BATNA a best alternative to negotiated agreement And when we reach my end point I'll say I'm done I can't go any further Um and if you try and go beyond that I'll withdraw Just know what the limits are

Eric Dickmann:

Well you know I remember going to buy uh automobiles with my grandfather and my dad And old negotiating trick there is right Well we'll just split the difference

Mike Lander:

Yeah

Eric Dickmann:

We'll just split the difference and I'm surprised how many people still think that that's a good negotiating tactic as well We're just going to split the difference

Mike Lander:

We're just gonna split the difference Uh I mean interesting Chris Voss very well known negotiate from the States uh ex FBI negotiator You know he wrote a book called never split the difference

Eric Dickmann:

the difference Yeah I remember that

Mike Lander:

So yeah Negotiations Interesting Interesting negotiations evolved a lot over the last kind of 10 20 years But the tools and techniques haven't You know I I did my a negotiation training Wow 15 years ago at Harvard Uh which is an amazing course And um I look at the tools I use now The principles are still the same as the ones I use then a bit But the basic premise of negotiation hasn't really changed that much

Eric Dickmann:

Do you advise people to say you should negotiate every deal that you're working on So you know let's keep up with this SAS model where you go to the website They've got good Better best You know pricing you know three tiers four tiers whatever And you look well this is these are my three choices Which 1:00 AM I going to take Or do you say Nope I need to get a sales person on the phone and start negotiating What what's your advice

Mike Lander:

If you can get a sales person on the phone Definitely get a sales person on the phone I did it for uh uh I won't name the product is not fair on them but I did it for a SaaS based provider about a year ago And um like you I didn't want to have 10 user licenses My client needed three And I found a sales person And we had a discussion and sure enough we got a special deal Because they have these reserve deals They just don't put them on their website But I said look I can sign a contract in half an hour If you send it to me now If you do this price

Eric Dickmann:

Hmm

Mike Lander:

I may one Will it They did the car salesman trick Eric I'll have to go and talk to my manager So they put the phone down obviously for a minute they made a coffee and I had to walk around and then they came back and said you know what they've said Yes But No one else gets this daily special to you I'm like that's fine Okay

Eric Dickmann:

That's that's interesting to me too because you know working closely with a lot of sales organizations some of these things they just seem so common across all businesses where there's this reluctance or I have to go check with my manager and then the old you know let's do every deal at the end of the month or especially you know the last month of the quarter So that and seemed like why can't businesses get out of this cycle There's so much frantic activity at the end of a month or especially the end of a quarter to get things done It's like why not Push that out a little bit more throughout the quarter

Mike Lander:

Again a great tactic is that if you're a supplier selling into big companies And internally within your organization you've got quarterly quotas and you've got to hit your numbers One of the best things you can do is stop that

Eric Dickmann:

Hm

Mike Lander:

From a sales comp scheme point of view because the moment I as a buyer I suspect as you say already that you've got an end of quarter Or an NDA problem And I'm going to negotiate with you when it suits me So if in that conversation you say to me Mike just so we're clear by the way Um We've done a way with end of quarter end of year quotas So whenever you talk to me we're going to negotiate a very similar deal Now I might or might not believe you But it's a good starting point

Eric Dickmann:

Yeah cause it can really stall out a lot of negotiations right Because everybody knows there's no point in doing this now I'll get a much better deal If I just wait a couple of weeks

Mike Lander:

Correct And again the research that you do you know if you um if you're selling it to public companies Yeah They are bound by very strict governance rules uh as a listed company And that's a great thing to do because you can find out loads of information about my company on the web Yeah the web is such a wonderful tool now for research I used to have to go down to the library don't even know if they exist anymore

Eric Dickmann:

Exactly To research Yeah you can find out what other people are paying You can see reviews Uh you can even you know look back and see when they've run promotions or other things like that Yeah There's just so much information out there that helps you as a buyer as a buyer

Mike Lander:

Exactly Yeah And as a seller You know it doesn't sell the same thing when you're doing your preparation as a seller Yeah Really important to do your research about what's happened to that company in the last kind of 12 months what's been going on read the annual reports Yeah look at their websites Yeah simple thing If you are facing off against the negotiation against the procurement person by the way So if one of your audiences in the sales stream or a sales leader Uh then negotiating a big deal with a fortune 500 company Um and you get told to go and see procurement Obviously you look at my LinkedIn profile One does but look for something specific When you look up the Kilman person's LinkedIn profile Look down the list of jobs they've done If they spent 10 years in procurement and eight of those years were in FMCG And they were buying What they called direct goods So they were a buyer They were buying bananas apples You know Clothing Be really wary These are highly trained negotiators

Eric Dickmann:

that's interesting Yeah

Mike Lander:

Very very I wouldn't say aggressive but very pointed in the negotiations because every single every cent that you stayed Counts in a large retailer or a large FMCG company And so if someone in procurement has been in direct goods and then now in indirect cause marketing is an indirect service

Eric Dickmann:

Okay

Mike Lander:

I've switched from direct into indirect Just do a lot more preparation and be really well-prepared They will be very tough adversaries and it will not be win-win

Eric Dickmann:

Hmm You know one of the perceptions that I've often had when dealing with a procurement people Is it sort of like uploading you know the essence of your resume to some automated HR sorry service you know you spend hours and hours trying to craft this document that sets you apart And what they want to do is they want to strip all that out and just get down to the basics And sometimes it feels like that when you're negotiating with a procurement person because they don't want all your lovely collateral and all the work that you put in to make your product stand out They want you to fill out a spreadsheet with a bunch of light items that makes you look exactly like your Stutters So how do you win in scenarios where a lot of what you feel makes you unique feels like it gets stripped out as part of the process of negotiating

Mike Lander:

This is a great topic So when you're in that scenario um In procurement By the time you meet me I assume that you've done your job Let's say it's marketing because it's an easy topic Let's say that you've been negotiating with the CMO I assume the reason you're with me is because the CMO really rates you She thinks you've got a brilliant proposition That you can deliver real value to the organization and that you're on the short list So when you come and see me bringing all the same collateral to me that you brought the CMO Isn't going to help

Eric Dickmann:

Hmm

Mike Lander:

Because I'll say look I assume you've done that or else Why are you here

Eric Dickmann:

That's a good point

Mike Lander:

So when you come and see me you need to recut your stakeholder pack and start to think about a few things So I've written something called very simple and it's called the procurement success equation I'm an engineer by training Eric as we said So I like equations I like maths So if I'm a procurement person Success is defined as yes It's about price and savings But it's about reliability Savings plus reliability Plus quality Plus sustainability Because I need to know that what you're doing is ethical and sustainable And it's about risk on the bottom line

Eric Dickmann:

Hmm

Mike Lander:

I add up the top ones and then I divide it by risk So when you see me you've got to try and convince me that you're a low risk solution This isn't going to go wrong That you're reliable that you aren't going to just suddenly fall over I can get a high quality outcome and we can agree some service level agreements and KPIs to measure against that The your supply chain has been audited and that we know that we can rely upon those not being held to account because if you all Paul uh service around how you manage your supply chain And the moment you just look at even that one the simple equation You've now got five or six things you can talk to procurement about which are outside of the value proposition that you're selling And now you've got my attention

Eric Dickmann:

One I suppose this is especially true If you're a smaller vendor maybe going up uh against some established players that right out of the gate their risk profile is going to be much lower than yours So you've got to sort of wait these other things a little bit higher

Mike Lander:

That's right And it's about balancing that equation until the acceptable outcome For procurement

Eric Dickmann:

That's

Mike Lander:

People get trapped into it's only about price And it's not anyone that says that procurement only care about I haven't met procurement or they've met them They haven't bubbled to understand them

Eric Dickmann:

That's really interesting And now you know you started out this conversation talking about the fact that you invested you bought your own consulting company and that's what you're you're running today So you teach people how to do this This is part of what you're offering is Tell us share with the audience a little bit about what you do

Mike Lander:

Yeah sure Sure So um what I do now is that I work with uh organizations that are selling into big companies smaller companies selling into big companies And typically that you can have $10 million turnover too A hundred $200 million turnover Um and those suppliers I work with them to help their sales teams and their account management teams Become better negotiators So they do better deals with that clients Especially when procurement's involved So I run training I run coaching I write loads of contents I've done a video today as well That are released I write a regular column for something called the drum Uh which in the UK and the us is a big media platform Uh and it's uh there's a column called ask the negotiator and that's me And each month I write something about a negotiation scenario within the marketing field

Eric Dickmann:

I think this is so timely because obviously with a lot of publicly traded companies especially there just seems to be this constant chiseling away at expenses where they're looking to save money Uh to make their their balance sheets look good but real negotiating skills can make such a difference Because I think sometimes people are just scared There is a there's a mental hesitation I think on some people's part to negotiate because they don't feel they're well-equipped to do it They feel scared you know that they might walk in and look stupid But it's important to know when is an appropriate time to negotiate because it can amount to some significant savings

Mike Lander:

Absolutely There's no surprise that when the surveys were done uh across um a lot of us companies that were listed and European companies The ones that have the highest growth rates in net profit And we're the most profitable Uh how trained negotiators inside On both the selling side and the buying side there's a direct correlation between negotiation maturity and profitability

Eric Dickmann:

And that's really an interesting point and we can end on that one but it is not just your procurement team who needs to have them negotiating steel It's also your sales team right Because they're negotiating from from a different standpoint Yeah Yeah Hey Uh, if you could, I'd love for you to leave some information where, uh, people can find you on the web and on social media. And we will also make sure to hook all that stuff up in our show notes.

Mike Lander:

Now I'd love to definitely. Yeah. Brilliant.

Eric Dickmann:

Yeah. So where can people find you on the web?

Mike Lander:

Best thing to do is look at, um, piss gallery.com. P I S C a R E piss gallery.com forward slash guide. There's a guide that they can download.

Eric Dickmann:

Hey, that's excellent. We will make sure to link that up in the show notes so that people can find you. This is, like I said, it's a fascinating topic. Something that we haven't really covered on the show before. And I really encourage people to check out your website and the blogs that you write, because, uh, there's a lot of, uh, fine tips in there and things that people really should start implementing in their business.

Mike Lander:

I really enjoyed it. And thank you for inviting me. It's been a real pleasure.

Eric Dickmann:

Great. Thanks, Mike.