The Virtual CMO
The Virtual CMO podcast discusses growth marketing strategies for SMBs and how new technologies are improving marketing effectiveness. Hosted by Eric Dickmann, founder of The Five Echelon Group and a fractional CMO, the podcast focuses on building strategic marketing plans and executing successful growth marketing programs. It includes interviews with industry thought leaders who share their experiences and insights. The show highlights new marketing automation platforms, AI-enabled tools, and other cutting-edge technologies that can enhance marketing campaigns.
The Virtual CMO
Growing New Businesses as a Fractional Co-Founder with Nick Rimsa
In episode 121, host Eric Dickmann talks with Nick Rimsa - Owner of Tortoise Labs where he offers services as fractional Co-Founder to help ambitious entrepreneurs develop their ideas into profitable apps, products, and services.
Located in Maine, Tortise Labs has a mission is to help Mainers turn their ideas into profitable, scalable startups.
For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit: https://fiveechelon.com/growing-business-fractional-co-founder-s8ep6/
A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.
The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at:
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm your host, Eric Dickmann. In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business. Today, I'm excited to have guest Nick Rimsa on the program. Nick is the founder of Tortoise Labs, a rural product studio located in Maine. Nick serves as a Fractional Co-founder to help first time founders start and grow sustainable and profitable businesses. Nick, welcome to the program.
Nick Rimsa:Thank you so much for having me, Eric.
Eric Dickmann:This is gonna be an interesting conversation. You know, this podcast is really focused on marketing. It's focused on this whole idea of fractional CMOs, fractional executives that come into companies and help them out. And when I was first introduced to you, I saw this whole concept of being a fractional co-founder, which fascinated me. So I'm very interested to get into the details of that today. I'd love it if as we kick things off, you could give the audience it's a little bit more of an expanded background, share how you got to Tortoise Labs, and how things got started.
Nick Rimsa:Sure. So I have been a researcher and designer for nine years working throughout the country, primarily in New York City, Boston, Philadelphia. Four years ago, I had the opportunity to teach a product design course at Colby College and thought, Hey, this seems like a really interesting thing to do at the time I was working independently for various startups and agencies and taught the course, it went great and noticed, wow, there are a lot of students and members of the community who wanna bring their ideas to life, but they're struggling with those first steps. And that had always been my background, focused on customer research and prototyping and thought- Hey, this is an opportunity to continue to stay on board here at the college and continue to work with folks within the community. One thing led to another, in terms of partnerships, in terms of folks I'm working with, and ultimately that led to establishing this business called Tortoise Labs, which is an incubator that helps first time founders go from idea to first paying customers. And now it's your four living here and have had the chance to work with hundreds of founders, dozens of organizations, and haven't had a chance to do some really fun things.
Eric Dickmann:Do you find that the startup community is pretty strong and thriving up in Maine?
Nick Rimsa:Surprisingly, yes. So when I first moved here, I didn't have any sort of understanding about what the foundation looked like, what the community looked like. And now having been here for four years, it's grown tremendously just in that amount of time, not only the number of organizations that are assisting founders, but also the number of founders who are building really, really interesting things. It's been tremendous to see what's happened in such a short amount of time and having graduated from college about 10 years ago here in Maine, having seen what's changed in 10 years, it's been tremendous.
Eric Dickmann:We're living in this time of The Great Resignation, you know, we've gone through COVID,, changes in the workplace dynamic people wanting to work remotely and leaving the corporate world. Have you found that this is just an incredible time for, young founders to sort of say, I've got an idea. I wanna make a business out of this. Do you really see exponential growth in people wanting to start up a company?
Nick Rimsa:Yes. And I would say not just young founders, but people of all ages. I think one trend that I'm seeing a lot, especially lately are parents who are considering, Hey, this is an opportune time for me to explore an idea that I've had for a long time. And also teachers who perhaps might have a summer vacation and might think, Hey, this is an opportunity for me to kick something off and get started with an idea that I've always had, but haven't quite yet investigated.
Eric Dickmann:You know, it's funny. I've got a business degree and people go to school to learn the fundamentals of business, right? But you don't sort of start with all those fundamentals and say I'm gonna start a company without really having some sort of a product or an idea about what it is that that company's gonna sell. Typically it starts the other way around, right? Somebody has an idea for a product or a service, but might not have that background in terms of how to run a business. So I'm curious when somebody comes to you and says- Hey, I've got this idea. How does that conversation start? What are some of the initial things that you start to talk about when you meet with somebody for the first time?
Nick Rimsa:The conversations, regardless if someone's building an app or a product or a service, generally start very similarly. And those conversations start with a focus on customer and value proposition. Who is the person who you want to help and what is it that you want to help them to accomplish. And so that usually sets the foundation for then what's to come. And that usually is going to talk to those people who might ideally be customers. The focus of what I'm trying to do helping first time founders is to establish who's the customer to then go talk to those people to identify what is it that those people might have a willingness to pay for to then build whatever that thing might be with the least amount of effort, money, and time, so that those founders can evaluate demand. I think one thing that founders so often, especially first time founders get stuck on are all of the other things that go into building a business, right? Whether that's branding or coloring or messaging or any of the multitude of other things.But really at the end of the day, the founder's job is to understand who their customer is, understand what it is that they want, and to sell them whatever that thing is.
Eric Dickmann:You're exactly right. We see that all the time in marketing too. You know, the first thing that people wanna do is get that business card or create that logo without really understanding necessarily their overall strategy. And I'm curious in some of these conversations, as you talk about the target market, you talk about that willingness to buy whatever product or service they're creating, do the light bulbs really start to go off in a lot of founders'' minds and do they see that there really is a marketplace for their product, or is that a time when a lot these founders get weeded out?
Nick Rimsa:It's a little bit of both. So time of course reveals truth. And so the longer you have an opportunity to work with someone, the more that not only you get to build the relationship with them, but also they begin to understand the foundation and fundamentals of whatever it is that they're building. And so generally what I find is the folks who are ultimately most successful are the ones who focus the most on their customers, who spend the most time with them who ask them the most questions, who build the deepest relationships, and so often, those are the people who are having success from the very get go than those people who are investing that amount of time. And I think what's always the most interesting to me is that oftentimes, those are the folks who don't come from backgrounds of business or backgrounds of technology in any way. Those are folks who perhaps are parents or school teachers, or just working some nine to five in which they aren't necessarily even talking to customers, but they innately have an understanding of, Hey, I need to talk to people to understand what it is that I need to build, and then I need to build that thing. And so that straight line that cutting out of all of these other distractions, the business card, as you mentioned, oftentimes leads those folks to quick success.
Eric Dickmann:My experience has been working with a lot of companies is that founders often think that their product or service is really unique. It's really something completely different in the market. And I tend to look at it as an iteration. It's something that may be slightly better than something else out there, it may be a slight improvement, has an additional set of features, maybe targets the market a little bit differently, but rarely do I come across companies who truly have something revolutionary, doesn't exist in the marketplace today. Do you see that a lot both in terms of the products that they're bringing and the mindset that they have, this mindset, they've got something that's truly unique and doesn't exist?
Nick Rimsa:An attitude that I see a lot is when founders are worried that someone might copy their idea because it's new or novel or different. And to your point, you know, oftentimes the feedback that I give is that nobody copies a bad idea. If you have a good idea, and you're able to find customers, you're able to establish a market. Ultimately there will be other market participants. And if you're someone who has an idea that notices, wow, there already is a market for it. That's not a reason to quit. I think that oftentimes that's a reason to proceed because that business or that set of businesses has already evaluated demand. They've done the hard work for you already. And so I think that to your point, ideas are oftentimes one notch different than before, or one slightly different value prop than before. And I think that regardless of the idea, if you're a founder who is able to establish who your customer is, understand what the core value prop is, you're gonna be able to deliver upon some success.
Eric Dickmann:I'm a big Apple fan, have been so for years, and there's sort of a saying in the Apple community, they call it being sherlocked. Early in Mac OS 10, there was a product, Apple basically copied the product, integrated it into the operating system, and it was called Sherlock when they did it. But the point of it is, is that it was something that was a logical add-on to the technology that they already had. And yes, some independent developer came up with it first, but it was something that you could logically see being added to the core of what they offer. And oftentimes I see businesses going to market with the product, and this is certainly true in the app world, where you can see that functionality or that thing being copied, because really it's simply a feature, it's not sort of a standalone independent thing. Do you see that often as well?
Nick Rimsa:I do, yes. I think oftentimes the founders who have the most success are the ones who have a deep understanding about their customer and their market. And it's sometimes because they actually come from that realm and they have an understanding about. Hey, what's the difference between a core value prop and what's the difference between a nice to have feature. And I think oftentimes what tends to uncover that is talking to potential customers about what it is that they're hoping to bring to market and really focusing on real behavior rather than, Hey, is this something that you might be interested in having? One of the first key readings that, I ask founders to, to complete is the mom test, which is a book about how to talk to customers and so much of that book is focused on real behavior, understanding- Hey, what are folks actually doing? What are folks actually going about in their regular day to day? And so often those conversations are what ultimately uncover and untangle, Hey, what's actually valuable from what's something that's nice to have or what's something that can be just a feature? You know, because that foundational piece is, if it's something that folks have a willingness to pay for potential customers have a willingness to pay for, then that founder established and found something that is truly valuable and not just nice.
Eric Dickmann:Yeah. I often think, especially in the technology world, I've dealt with a lot of technology companies in my day. And you know, you take a look at something as ubiquitous as like Microsoft Office and all the capability that all of those programs bring to a user. And yes, there's an incredibly big company behind it, but it's an incredibly powerful suite of products and it sells for a premium price. And sometimes then I see a little app come along that does one very specific thing, and it's priced almost at the same level that this huge suite of technology products is priced at. And I think to myself, this seems to be a mismatch. You're asking for something far greater than the utility or the value that I as a user think it brings and rarely would I ever purchase something like that, unless it truly does something unique that nobody else does in the marketplace. And to me, this gets to the whole idea of the economics, whether a product is viable. And do you see, oftentimes when founders start thinking about pricing their products, that they're overly ambitious in terms of how much they think they can sell that product for?
Nick Rimsa:I tend to find the opposite.
Eric Dickmann:Really? They undervalue
Nick Rimsa:I tend to find that a lot of founders undervalue because they are seeing what you're describing. They're seeing large companies pricing things lower than what they might be able to receive from their customers. And like these are first time founders traditionally, like they don't have pricing power, they don't have the ability to you know, scale up rapidly. And I think oftentimes what conversations reveal is, Hey, actually my customers have a higher willingness to pay than I expected because they're ascribing a different value than what I expected, right? They are saying- Hey, this tool helps me to save 20 hours a week and here's my hourly rate. So now this isn't just a$10 a month SaaS product, this is something that's why I leave valuable. And I think one really helpful tidbit that the most successful founders, especially within software land that I'm working with tend to do is they have a really good understanding about- Hey, what does my customer have a willingness to pay? And what does customer number two, have a willingness to pay? I think oftentimes, um, especially as founders are getting going, it's totally okay to charge different prices to different customers. And ultimately that of course sets the market, but getting started with customers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, maybe even as, as high as 10 or 20 customers, it's okay to charge different prices. And oftentimes that's then what reveals, Hey, my customers actually have a much higher willingness to pay than I initially anticipated. And wow. I've got something here that has not only only is super valuable, but also has some great margins and we're gonna be able to scale so much faster because we're charging so much more.
Eric Dickmann:Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to the podcast. But first, are you ready to grow, scale, and take your marketing to the next level? If so, The Five Echelon Group's Virtual CMO consulting service may be a great fit for you. We can help build a strategic marketing plan for your business and manage its execution, step-by-step. We'll focus on areas like how to attract more leads. How to create compelling messaging that resonates with your ideal customers. How to strategically package and position your products and services. How to increase lead conversion, improve your margins, and scale your business. To find out more about our consulting offerings and schedule a consultation, go to fiveechelon.com and click on Services. Now back to the podcast. I'm interested too, in this whole concept that you have of a Fractional Co-founder, often with incubators, you hear things phrase more as mentoring, right? Mentoring relationships with the co-founders, helping them get started. So how do you sort of move from that into a Fractional Co-founder where I assume you're having some sort of ownership interest in the company. How does that work and how do those engagements get started? How do you have that conversation?
Nick Rimsa:Well, the short answer is it depends. But traditionally, it starts all with establishing a trusting relationship and establishing a long-term relationship with the founders who I'm working with, regardless if I'm going to ultimately be playing a larger role or not. Because again, these are folks who are getting started normally for the first time, there are so many pitfalls that they don't quite yet understand, or they haven't yet experienced. And they're putting a whole heck of a lot of trust into the work that I'm doing. And so, to me, it's really important to first establish a, a really high level of trust with whoever it is that I'm working with. And generally, I'm not necessarily coming on as an operator for an extended period of time, right? That founder first needs to establish who's my customer? What's the value that I'm delivering? And then what's the product or service that I'm bringing to market? And can I sustain this for a certain level of time? Can I sell this duct tape solution? So oftentimes founders, even with good ideas come to market and they are actually able to sell the product. And so at that point it's like, okay, well sure, I definitely would be valuable as a sales and marketing helper, but if they're not able to move the product themselves, well, then they're not gonna be able to get the feedback that helps them to improve the product, that helps them to improve messaging and so on and so forth. So generally it's once they reach a certain threshold in which they're working, for lack of a better term, they're working like a dog, and they are unable to sort of pass through that next precipice of growth, whether that's going from$5,000 a month of revenue to 10 or 10 to 20, but generally that conversation just starts, It starts generally pretty organically. Like, Hey, I'm kind of getting to the end of my ability to get stuff done in a week. And I see that there's demand that I'm not able to necessarily get to myself, but if I had more time or if I had some help, I would be able to get to it. And so it's less of what is this founder going to be able to do with me, and it's more, what am, what am I actually going to be able to do in order to unlock this founder? And so. It, it comes up organically. It's a conversation that takes place, not in one sitting, but over the course, generally of several months and ultimately sort of figuring out, Hey, where might I actually be valuable here? Is it me loaning a small amount of money? Helping you to get some grant funding in order to attach a contractor or set of contractors, or do you actually need an operator in which, you know, I might be able to step in and provide five or 10 hours a week and actually get this thing really going. So the short answer is it depends. It's a really long conversation that stretches over an extended period of time. And I think what's most important there too is to establish, Hey, what is the founder going to be really good at? And where might I be able to actually provide additional value?
Eric Dickmann:I'm glad we are having this conversation because it really isn't one we've dug into on this program before, but I think a lot of people look at outside help and say, I, I just can't afford it. And I think if you're looking at needing outside help and having that conversation about affordability, you have to be creative. There are a lot of different ways to engage outside help, right? Sure, there's hourly rates where people can come in and provide services for an hourly rate, there's flat rate engagements where they may have a retainer and give you so many hours a month of service. But then there are also things like equity arrangements where somebody can come in and say, well, I'm not gonna charge you upfront, but I'd like a little bit of share of the business to help you get to that point of growth. There's a lot of creativity out there, especially for people doing this kinds of fractional work. And I encourage people if they need the help to have those kinds of conversations and explore ways to work together. Wouldn't you agree?
Nick Rimsa:Absolutely. And I think to your point, so oftentimes early stage founders are stuck on, oh man, I gotta go raise a round of money and raising money, especially from VC land. It's not the only direction that allows you to get to a level of sustainability and profitability. Oftentimes there is a requirement to get creative, whether that be with splitting up time, amongst different contractors, whether that means adding a teammate or two and giving up some equity or adding someone fractionally and giving up some equity, I think you know, famously a hundred percent of zero is zero. And so if you're unable to grow the business to a certain stage on your own, that's not a function of defeat, you're not a bad founder because you're not able to do that. There's so much that needs to get accomplished as a one person team. So if you're able to spread out, not only that work, but also that risk amongst more people, then you're probably better off for the long term and it's certainly viable to have conversations and explore in a number of different ways. One point that I didn't mention in the previous response is that oftentimes, like whenever I'm working with someone for the first time and I'm establishing, Hey, is this person going to be a good contractor, a good teammate, long term? I'm giving out short term projects to see, to test, to experiment, to see- Hey, is this person actually gonna be good? Do we work together well? Do they establish what needs to get done and do they do it on time? Do they communicate well? And I oftentimes encourage founders who are considering some sort of fractional agreement or adding a teammate to do the exact same thing to say, Hey, this is a problem that I'm facing, I need you to go figure this out because oftentimes in a early stage business, there aren't a whole heck of a lot of constraints or guard rails, there just is a problem that needs to be solved. And so oftentimes what I'm doing is encouraging just that like, Hey, establish a short term project for someone to be able to figure out without a whole heck of a lot of constraints, and are they able to do it? Are they able to achieve what it is that you want? And did you work together well? And I'm doing that with first time founders who are interested in potentially working together and say, Hey, is this actually gonna work out? Because it's important not only just for them, but for me as well.
Eric Dickmann:It's like you know, don't skip ahead from the first date to getting married, right? You don't have to look at something and say, just based on this little bit of information, I'm gonna make a lifelong decision. Yeah, those kind of early projects where you can start to build that trust, see how you work together, there's a lot of collaboration and trust that has to happen in any kind of working relationship if you want it to be successful. And so, yeah, I completely agree. It's great to have those smaller projects up front so that you can test things out and build that trust together. I'm curious, too as you work with these founders, what do you see as the role of marketing? How do you advise them when it comes to marketing? Because I know there's a temptation for many people to either do it too soon or not do it soon enough, right? And they wait too long before they apply the gas pedal if you will to the marketing engine, how do you look at marketing when you have those discussions with these founders?
Nick Rimsa:I think it all starts with those same couple of questions. Who's the customer who you're serving and what is the value that you're providing? Oftentimes when I'm working with folks early on, we're focused first on sales, we're focused first on one to one. Hey, are you actually able to go out and find these people, talk to them, learn from them, sell to them. And not only until these founders have a deep, deep understanding about who their customer is and one, the value is that they are providing, can they then move to marketing. I think oftentimes to your point, right, it's really, really easy to skip ahead because it's fun, it seems productive, it seems like you're getting so, so much done. If you're able to spin up a social media account and start posting, or you're able to hop onto a podcast and start talking about what it is that you're selling, but unless you have a really clear understanding about who your customer is and what you're ultimately helping them to achieve, you might be running in circles. And so oftentimes, we aren't even establishing any sort of marketing schedule, any sort of marketing content, any cohesive plan, really, until there's a clear understanding of, Hey, what's this approach sales wise? What's the approach one to one? Are we able to do this effectively? Okay, we are. Now we can take the lessons that we've learned, the messaging, the people who we should be in contact with, and we can create valuable content that helps them on a marketing scale.
Eric Dickmann:Yeah, because there's no doubt about it, marketing is an expense, right? But done correctly, it can be an engine for growth. But that engine for growth only works when there's revenue, right? You have to have sales. And so if your marketing isn't producing sales, it can be problematic because you can burn through money very quickly. My experience has been that many young companies they're so excited about brand awareness, right? They want to get their name out into the world, they want to get that recognition, but they don't necessarily have a plan to turn that recognition into sales.
Nick Rimsa:Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's so true. And it's frustrating to see because it's like- Hey, you've got something really good here. If you actually slowed down and took your time, you'd be able to go faster later. So it's a conversation that I have quite often. It's like- Hey, first let's establish what this offering is. Let's establish if you're able to move this product one to one. And then at that point, that cost becomes an investment because folks have a clear understanding about who it is that I'm targeting, what I should be targeting them, and how am I actually being helpful or valuable in the content that I'm producing marketing wise and how can I get in front of people at the right time so that they can then make a decision and ultimately become a customer through market?
Eric Dickmann:Are there some resources that you found particularly helpful as you have conversations with startup founders and young companies, you know, there are so many great books and podcasts and things like that out there. Where do you go to get educated or to find additional resources for your own benefit?
Nick Rimsa:I rely a lot on Twitter.
Eric Dickmann:Yeah.
Nick Rimsa:I've been very lucky to, for a long time, just sit there and learn and not really contribute much of anything, and have found some really amazing marketers, a couple that come to mind right off the bat, Amanda Natividad and Harry Dry. Both of them focus a lot on copy. To me. copy is design. I think copy is wildly, wildly helpful. I think whenever I'm working with folks on anything digital, that's step one of wherever we start, it's like- Hey, let's make sure we think about copy as design and let's start there. And so recently have relied a lot on how do I improve my copy? How do I actually speak to customers better using their own language. And that's really become foundational to a lot of the work that I'm doing. Couple of the other people who I've been really lucky to follow and learn from and more recently work with, Annie Batcher is one, Grace Baldwin is another. They lead a very small copywriting and case study agency, they do just some really tremendous work and have been really lucky to rely upon their learning. So I think that if you're someone who is interested in learning more about sales and marketing, I use Twitter a lot. I found find the accounts that I'm able to actually learn from, to benefit from. And follow them for as long as they provide value. And for some of these people who I just mentioned, they've been providing value for as long as I've had an account and continue to learn from. So have been very, very lucky to get to learn from some of these people from afar. And then more recently have had the chance to work closely with them.
Eric Dickmann:You're absolutely right. Podcasts, Twitter, YouTube, there are so many people who are willing to share their knowledge, the resources that we have at our disposal are, are just incredible. And I'm curious for yourself at Tortoise Labs, you know, what do you view as your ideal customer? If somebody's listening to this today and say, boy, I could really use that kind of help, I'd never really thought about having a Fractional Co-founder before, what would you say would be your ideal customer?
Nick Rimsa:Well, I would say there's two. The first is someone who has an idea they're not sure quite where to get started, they've been struggling with the resources that they have or they're overwhelmed by information, and they'd like to bring something to market. Ideally they come from some sort of industry or market in which they have a deep understanding about whatever it is that they want to bring to market. But if not, that's totally okay, too. So I would say that's person number one. And then thing number two is actually an organization. It's a nonprofit or a college that has an audience that's entrepreneurial nature and wants to help them at a slightly larger scale. So think of economic based, not non-profits who are interested in growing the number of small businesses in their state are interested in growing them locally, those might be good folks for me to work with to help establish what that programming might be so that they can access more founders at a local or state level, and help grow their ideas into sustainable and profitable business.
Eric Dickmann:That's good. That's succinct. I like that. If somebody's listening to that and that's them, how is the best way that they can reach you either through LinkedIn, Twitter, your website, give people a chance to find you on the web.
Nick Rimsa:Sure. Thank you. Yeah. So if you head to tortoiselabs.com, there's a contact form there. You can find me there. I live on my machine, so I'm easy to get ahold of. You can follow me on Twitter at Nick Rimsa, R I M S A, or on LinkedIn with the same name, Nick Rimsa. So, thank you for letting me plug my things.
Eric Dickmann:No, absolutely. As I said, you know, when we were first introduced, I really was fascinated by this concept of a Fractional Co-founder and you've done a great job of explaining the benefits of it today. So I really hope that the audience has found value in it as well. And I will certainly make sure that everything that you mentioned there is linked up in the show notes so that people can find you and reach out if they're the appropriate kind of customer for you. Nick, I really appreciate your time today, I've really enjoyed our conversation.
Nick Rimsa:Me too, Eric.
Eric Dickmann:Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. For more episodes, go to fiveechelon.com/podcast to subscribe through your podcast player of choice. And if you'd like to develop consistent lead flow and a highly effective marketing strategy, visit fiveechelon.com to learn more about our Virtual CMO consulting services.
