Fractional CMO Insight: The Importance of Having a Marketing Strategy with Natalie Swan

In episode 124, host Eric Dickmann welcomes guest, Natalie Swan, a Fractional CMO at Swan & Associates. Natalie shares her unique perspective on the importance of marketing strategy. She shares insights on the necessity of having a clear marketing strategy and how important it is to implement tactics that align with a company's overarching goals.

Natalie tackles the confusion that often surrounds marketing, emphasizing the need to be resourceful when budgets are limited. She elaborates on the importance of understanding and refining an ideal customer profile to make informed decisions about the most effective marketing tactics.  We talk about customer journey mapping and how it can be instrumental in crafting a successful marketing strategy.

This episode is jam-packed with insightful tips and strategies, so don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from one of the best in the industry. Tune in, and let's transform the way you think about marketing strategy!

For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit: https://fiveechelon.com/importance-of-marketing-strategy-with-natalie-swan/

A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.

The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at: 

https://fiveechelon.com

Transcript

Eric Dickmann: 0:29

Today I'm excited to have guest Natalie Swan of the program. Natalie is a fractional CMO who enjoys helping her clients turn business objectives into strategic actionable marketing. She believes that trying to grow business without a good marketing strategy simply doesn't work. I couldn't agree more. Natalie, welcome to the program.

Natalie Swan: 0:48

Hi, Eric. Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here and to have this conversation with you.

Eric Dickmann: 0:53

I'm excited to have the conversation too, because I love to talk to other people who are doing fractional work as well as people who truly understand the value of strategy and, you know, to kick things off. That was just a real short introduction. Could you just give us a little bit of your background? How did you get into marketing? What has been your, uh, your experience in the field to date?

Natalie Swan: 1:13

Absolutely, yes. So I studied business administration in school. Um, I went to the University of Oregon, so go ducks. And four days after I graduated, I ended up taking an internship in Chicago, um, with a company there that was incredibly fast. Growing at the time. Um, it was a large scale event production company. And so we were hosting events for tens of thousands of people all across the United States and internationally. And this company was started by two, um, two young men in their late twenties and scaled to tens of millions of dollars very quickly. Um, this is when social media was just becoming a thing. So people are taking pictures at, you know, the mud runs and the music festivals. And as you can imagine, It was incredibly fun to be part of, of marketing, uh, at

Eric Dickmann: 1:59

I can imagine.

Natalie Swan: 1:59

so fast growing. You know, we're getting a ton of attention and, and people are loving it, and so I just really found a knack for telling that story and for promoting those things and because of how fast the company was growing as well. You know, I was so new in my career and so I got to do everything. I was the one who was sending marketing emails, writing the copy, um, posting on Facebook. But then I also had the opportunity to really work my way up to work with the executive leadership team on annual strategic planning for our marketing on go to market for our new brands and helping being part of the brand development process, um, and just really seeing what it takes to be in marketing at a fast growing organization. Why you really need to have the strategy and the systems to support that in order to be effective. So it was an incredible way to start my career. Um, I was there for six years and then I ended up moving to Seattle where I, um, ended up getting my business license. And this was in 2017. And my former employer became my first paying client, which I know we'll talk about a little bit later. Um, and so that was the light bulb moment of, okay, I can do this virtually, I can do it remote, I can do it part-time and still be incredibly effective with. Being a marketing leader. Um, I did end up taking a job full-time at a marketing strategy firm, which was incredible because that was my first experience managing clients and really seeing what that was like. I got to work for several months at a Fortune 50 tech company. I got to work, um, with really large international brands, and so it was a completely different experience. Um, but a year into that I really realized you. Uh, I've gotta take a chance on myself. I've, I've got to, you know, I'm really feeling called to be around entrepreneurs and to support other business owners and so in 2018, I left, um, my full-time role and this is what I've been doing ever since.

Eric Dickmann: 3:49

You know, one thing I really love about your journey is, let's face it, marketing can be a lot of fun. There are a lot of activities that take place in marketing. The tactical things that you do that can really be a lot of fun. And I know many marketers that are entering the field get very excited about some of those things. Right. But then you sort of went from that excitement of a lot of the tactical execution to the strategy side and really seeing, okay, how do all those pieces come together and develop a strategy? What, what was your takeaway from that, you know, as you, as you worked on that strategy?

Natalie Swan: 4:21

Yeah. And it's, it's funny you say the tactics are fun because I, I agree with you certainly, and I've been part of some fun tactics, but for me, the, the strategy is the fun piece. And, and you know, maybe I'm the oddball with that, but I, I really find, um, It, it's just fun to see your stuff work, right? It's fun when you're getting traction with marketing, when you're building momentum, um, which we all know nothing works right away. And so that's sort of the expectation is that, you know, we're gonna implement something and then we're gonna optimize it. And so I found that, um, you know, it was so much more fun to be able to work cross-functionally, work among the brand marketing team, work with the leadership team when everyone was so crystal clear. What are we trying to do and why are we making these decisions and how do these, you know, fun tactics or, or tests or whatever we're doing still support the overall goal and the overall roadmap of what we're trying to accomplish. And I have a really hard time, um, When that piece doesn't exist, and I see other people have a hard time with it too, because a lot of companies do not prioritize this the way that they really should. And so they end up with, you know, the spaghetti at the wall marketing and, you know, oh, this didn't work, so we're gonna pop over here and spend tens of thousands more dollars on something else. And so, um, that's not fun, right? So we're not seeing our marketing work, um, and we just sort of keep jumping ship to the next thing.

Eric Dickmann: 5:44

You're so right because when marketing isn't working, it's not being effective. There is that stress of spending all of this money, all this energy, and not seeing the results. And so strategy is so important and we're gonna dig into that a little bit more in this conversation. But I'm interested too, in your journey from going and working in a corporate environment to working on your own, you said that those first couple clients were clients that you had, uh, were previous employers, right? How have you found it since then? Sort of moving beyond those initial connections to actually having to generate business on your own?

Natalie Swan: 6:16

Yes. So, um, yeah, my first paying client was my former employer. And then after that, when I left my full-time role, I really told anyone and everyone about my business. And I think that this is a piece that, um, when people are new to starting out, they think, okay, I need to be on social media and I need to be creating content and doing all this stuff when. you really can just make it so much more simple than that. And, um, and it's so much more effective when it's simpler than that. And so I just told everyone, and because of the, um, work that I've done previously, the company and the network that I've been a part of, I knew a lot of very entrepreneurial people, people who joined other startups who had started their own businesses. And so I just reached out and said, You know, I'm, I'm thinking about doing this. I'm thinking about starting this marketing business. You know, what are some of the pitfalls you face? What are some of the challenges that you've gone through? What is your sort of ideal case for how this would be, um, what would be a good solution for you moving forward? And so that landed me some additional clients. And, you know, from there it really was just being open to opportunities. Um, I like to tell the story. One of my clients early on in my business as well, was my chiropractor, and we worked together for years because we had this very effective lead generation system that we did together. And that just came up because, you know, oh, what do you do? Oh, I'm a, you know, I'm a marketer and I help small business with their marketing. And, and so being open to, um, just those one-off circumstances can be incredibly effective. But also, you know of. Uh, evaluating that, right? And thinking through, okay, where have I gotten my best clients? Where have I gotten my favorite clients? What, what was their path to find me? And then how can I go ahead and, and optimize that, uh, moving forward too? So I, I don't want it to sound like it was just random, cuz it certainly wasn't. Um, and I had tools in place to help me, but, um, simplify is always a good way to go.

Eric Dickmann: 8:10

Have you found that when you talk about marketing, uh, just in random conversations with people, that they tend to sort of put it in a. They think marketing is advertising or they think that marketing is email spam or marketing Are, you know, those, those social media posts, do you find that people are very sort of narrow in their thinking about what the true capabilities of marketing really might be?

Natalie Swan: 8:35

Yes. And I, I wouldn't even necessarily say it narrow, but more confused

Eric Dickmann: 8:41

Hmm.

Natalie Swan: 8:43

marketers are the loudest people and we all have different opinions and we all have different experiences and things that have worked for us. And so as you're sort of navigating the, the online landscape and the new developments and the newest tactic or tool or platform, The marketers who are championing those things are gonna be the ones telling you how great it is, right? They're probably not gonna give you the full context. They're probably not gonna tell you about, okay, well I tried this a hundred other things that didn't work really well for me, Um, and so yes, people are confused by what to pursue. Um, they're skeptical and rightfully so, and especially because a lot of times, You know, people will pay money for something that they think is going to be the solution to their problem. That ends up really not being that. And, and one example I'll give you is, um, I spoke to a business owner who spent thousands of dollars. She's a brand new business owner to do like a full brand strategy package, which I'm a brand marketer, like I under. I completely value brand. It's something that I've placed a ton of importance in my own business, but you've gotta. Scrappy when you're, when you don't have a ton of resources and you really need to understand why am I investing this money this time right now? Versus is this something that I could, you know, do some experimentation and talk to more people and learn a bit more about what my brand is and what my product or service is, and why that resonates with people, um, not just, you know, and this is something they're willing to pay for versus. I wanna think of a fun logo and company name, which a lot of people think is, is, is the brand and the marketing, but it's so much more extensive than that, as you said.

Eric Dickmann: 10:26

There's always this fight against, you know, rushing to the low-hanging fruit, right? And doing those things that look good, but don't necessarily. Provide all that much effectiveness towards what the company's goals or objectives are. Yeah, I see that all the time. I'm curious too, as you've worked on your own, have you refined your own ideal, uh, customer profile, uh, the types of businesses that you're targeting?

Natalie Swan: 10:49

very much so. Yes. Um, and, and I think. As a business owner, you, you should be constantly doing that and not in a way. You know, it's impossible to move forward or it's impossible to really like, make decisions and stick with them, but in a way that we're part of a world that is changing so quickly and there's always new opportunities and, and absolutely. I mean, I've changed my service offerings. I've changed my l. You know, written copy. I've changed the platforms that I've used, but I've always done it from a place of understanding why am I making this decision? Like, why is this important right now? To sort of check myself that, no, I'm not chasing a new shiny thing. This is either gonna help me involve, evolve what I've been doing some way, or continue to build momentum in a similar way, um, rather than just say, oh, it's not working. Like I better go try something else. Always taking away the learning. From before to, you know, whatever next initiative it is that you're going to pursue.

Eric Dickmann: 11:52

Hmm. I agree with that. Yeah. You're constantly gotta be looking at it, right? And refining it, seeing what's. So aub, you narrowed it down. Do you focus mostly on b2b, b2c, any target industries? What's a sweet spot for you?

Natalie Swan: 12:03

The sweet spot for me. Um, I, I talk about it a little bit differently, but I, I say 3 million, um, dollar companies and up, so I. I am not most effective as marketing resource number one. I have worked with micro business owners and solopreneurs before, but as you know, Eric it, it takes a lot to. Get the marketing systems up and running. And so I tend to work best when I come into a situation with a company that either has a growing marketing team, you know, perhaps they have, um, a, a more junior person in place who's doing a lot of the execution. Um, maybe they're working with an agency or they have some, um, contractors or freelancers that are supporting their marketing and what they lack. How are all these disparate activities really coming together to support the business goals? Because that's what's so often missed. And I've had, you know, client projects that I come into and, and ask, you know, okay, well from leadership, like what is the direction of, of company priorities? What do we need to be focused on with the marketing in order to support those things? Cause marketing is a service function, right? Like, like we, we don't exist without the company. You know, roadmap or, or North Star in order to, to execute towards. And so, um, so that's just such an important piece of it is understanding why are we doing these things? Um, and as based on that, what, um, what's gonna make the most sense? So I really like to come into client situations where they have some type of marketing in place and they maybe are gonna have a new launch or a new initiative or a, a go to market that they need to scale. And I can come in and, and work with leadership on how are we communicating our goals, what are we actually trying to do? And then with marketing on great. Now we need a system and an implementation plan to actually make it happen.

Eric Dickmann: 13:53

I love that and I think it's so important. I'm curious as you engage with clients, Pushback. Do you get, well, strategy is important, but we just need a new website right now. We can look at the strategy after that. Do you or, or some similar kind of conversation. Do you hear that a lot?

Natalie Swan: 14:10

So I hear that and that is a, um, I'm not gonna say a red flag, but that is a signal to me that maybe I'm not a great fit for that project. Um, I've definitely taken on projects in the past where, you know, especially getting started, started out like, yeah, I'll, I'll help you out with a smaller project and, and, you know, I'll talk to the business owner about, okay, well we can start here, but we really need to, in order to truly be effective, we actually have to do these things over here as well. And so I've just kind of learned that, um, I really enjoy partnering with clients who see the value in having a strategy. You know, it, it takes a lot to come into an organization and. Have to then convince everyone why you're valuable and, and why you should be there and what you can do for them. But I've really been so fortunate and I think it is. Part of how I built my business, you know, starting with people who, who have seen what I can do and who've worked with me before and who know sort of how I operate and can vouch for that. Um, that when I come into a client project, they, they're ready and they're excited and they say awesome, like, great. And I'm able to really step in and start leading meetings and start asking for what I know I need, um, and not feel, um, like bad about that or not feel like, you know, any hesitation there. We're coming in on the same page, but Eric, I, it is so common, and I'm sure you hear this too, that there's a, a whole lot of people out there who. You know, strategy is for later. We don't have time, we don't have resources. You know, it's, it's, we've gotta get out this press release, we've gotta send out this marketing email. But that ends up wasting so much more money and time than if you just took a little bit of time to ensure everyone's on the same page. And yes, in fact, everything that we're doing really is prioritized to align with what we're trying to do as a business.

Eric Dickmann: 16:05

I completely agree with that. It does pay to take the time to really develop out a strategy. One of the other things that I see a lot, and I'm curious as to what your thoughts are here, is come into a business and we start talking about strategy. And they say, oh yeah, we have a strategy. Here's our Excel sheet. That is basically the budget and these are all the things that we're doing and how much money we've assigned, and maybe there's a column for how many leads we've generated from each one of these things. Ta-da. We have a strategy, but that's not really a strategy, that's a budget.

Natalie Swan: 16:35

Yeah, that's a budget. And, and, and in addition to that, a list of tactics. It'll be like, oh yeah, we're, you know, we're working with an influencer team or we're, you know, doing all these partnerships or, you know, whatever. And, and, um, great. Like, cool, let's, you know, let's keep the ball running on those things. If they are generating sales, if, you know, if we know that they're working and there's some type of, of system behind them, but you still need that strategy piece because what, what happens in those situations a lot of times that I see and, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts as well. maybe one of the things is working really well, but then there's all of this, these resources being spent spread so thin across all these other initiatives that aren't producing. And without a strategy, you're not able to say, Hey, we've been spending a lot of hours and thousands of dollars on this channel and it's not really getting us anywhere. Like maybe we should reallocate that elsewhere into what is working or into a new test or something. And that strategy is, is sort of a checks and balances that helps you make those decisions effectively and also keeps everyone on the same page because a lot of what I hear as well, and and c is, you know, the leadership team and, and other cross-functional executives wanna know what is marketing doing and, and what is your plan of coming and how is it gonna affect us? And the strategy is what? everyone understand that story and set expectations for what's to come. So

Eric Dickmann: 18:07

Well, I, one of my favorite examples, cause I think it's easy to understand is a lot of companies, if they haven't already, they want to get more into social media. It's very common for them to have maybe a junior level person on their team who's doing social media posts. And you go in and look at them and there's a post that says Happy New Year. And one that says, happy Martin Luther King Day and Happy Valentine's Day. And the list goes on and on. And that's. Those are nice, feel good posts, but what's the strategy? What's, what are you trying to accomplish? You've spent man hours and effort to put together a post, maybe create some graphics, put some things out. What is the point? What are you trying to accomplish by doing that? Is that just part of a broader social media strategy where you're actually just trying to keep your audience engaged? Or is that the strategy just to put little platitudes out on, on social media hoping that people care? That's a basic example, but that's one of the things that I think people see is why are you doing something? You can do a lot of things, but what's the purpose? What are you trying to get?

Natalie Swan: 19:07

Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm, for anyone listening, I'm like smiling really big as Eric is talking cuz I just I see this all the time. And that is, that is a check the box marketing activity. And, and, and people think, oh, I need to be visible on social media cuz people are on social media and so I need to have a presence. This is a really good time to ask yourself, what is my actual client or customer journey? Are people truly going to Instagram? Scrolling through the billions of other highly engaged and you know, highly thought through pieces of content landing on your Happy New Year post on your company page, clicking through and then buying something. No, that's not happening. And, and this is very common, whether they have a junior person, you know, internally do it, or they maybe hire a marketing intern or they, you know, are working with a freelancer who's, you know, the, the deal is, okay, we'll post for you three times a week on X number of channels. That's not really doing anything from a business perspective in most cases. And a lot of times what I see too, You know, there'll be five likes on the post and, and it's employees of the company. Like, you know, so, so why, why are you doing that? And there may be a case, there may be a strategy where someone's listening and saying, well, we know exactly how that impacts our business and that's why we keep doing it. But I would say the, the vast majority of people who are executing in that way, you know, it is probably wasting resources to do it. And it's probably not getting anywhere meaningful.

Eric Dickmann: 20:39

Yeah, and I see this a lot with things like SEO as well. You know, companies can come in and say, we're gonna help you out with your seo and you know, you sell network routers and now you rank for being a pastry chef. Okay, that's great, but. Does that help your business? Is anybody searching for pastry chefs that sell network routers? Right? It it, it's, are the keywords you're ranking for important to your business? Is it driving traffic? What's the outcome that you're trying to achieve? And I think that's why a strategy person is so important to a business, because not everybody in the management team is marketing savvy, nor should they be right. That's a job for a marketing specialist, and that's where somebody who can come in and lead that strategy effort can really say, Hey, these are the kinds of things that you need to watch out for. This is the purpose of us doing this. This is why investing these dollars is an important investment for your business.

Natalie Swan: 21:31

Yes. And I'll take it even a step further with the SEO example and also bring that back to what is your customer journey. People miss this. People don't go through their marketing channels as their ideal customer Would, you know, how are they finding me? What is the button they're clicking? What does it say on the page? How easy is it to find? What happens next? And this very simple process, and I highly encourage anyone listening who is active on social media or running seo, like, do this exercise and, and be really critical of it. And, or even better bring someone in to objectively do it. Bring in an ideal client or someone like that that can sort of help you refine what that process is. I was once speaking to an seo, um, expert and you know, he saw a lot of what you just mentioned as well, where it's like, oh, we're ranking for all. You know, keywords and they at glance seemed relevant, but it's not how people actually use search engines. I, I think one of the examples was like, you know, best, you know, we'll go with pastry chef in area code, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, no one searches that way. They search for pastry chef near me, or, you know, pastry chef, uh, Denver or something like that. And so it's, it's taking the time to be really critical. does this actually make sense? Um, and breaking it down really in, in simplifying it in that way can be an incredibly meaningful exercise.

Eric Dickmann: 23:00

I, I love the way you brought that up because you know, a buyer's journey is important. It's really. Critical, I think for any business to understand how buyers find you, what the buying process looks like. You know, what are upsell opportunities down the road to really understand that full journey. But like you said, it's not like every buyer goes through the same journey, in exactly the same sequence of steps, right? People come in and out at all different sorts of places, and so you really have to understand how they're interacting with their organization and what the purpose of each tactic is, because you never know if somebody's coming in on that tactic. Or a different one,

Natalie Swan: 23:35

Yep. Yep.

Eric Dickmann: 23:37

which makes attribution so hard. Right. That's one of the challenges in marketing.

Natalie Swan: 23:41

It does. And and that's one of the things too, that I think people hear something like that and they think, oh, that means I need to be everywhere. Right? Because we don't know where people are coming from. But that's not the case, right? It's, it's identifying what those channels are, where you are getting invisible, right? And getting in front of new people and, and really, um, Introducing them to, to your brand or to your business, and then what happens next? Well, they're gonna wanna learn a little bit more and they're want gonna wanna better educate themselves and explore, you know, is this company legitimate and where are some testimonials and or case studies? And so it, you know, it's not that you have to be everywhere, it's that you have to think about. Uh, think about that journey, like you said, and, and, and consider what each step of that looks like for, for the person who you want to, to hire you or come into your store or whatever, whatever it is.

Eric Dickmann: 24:31

And this is the whole importance of a strategy exercise. Really it's asking these kinds of questions. It's digging in deeper, really understanding, you know, what your journey is for your buyers, and then what are the tactics that are needed to support it. So I think that's so critical. If a company is out there and they're saying, well, I do have some problems with my marketing. I'm not getting the kind of lead flow that I need, or, uh, I'm not getting the right kind of. what do you say to them in terms of engaging with like a fractional executive? Why? Why would they go down that path?

Natalie Swan: 25:02

Yeah, so what I would say to them first, Try to figure out to some extent what is and isn't working. And this doesn't have to be a very built out, you know, multi-week exercise, but just be logical about it, and ask yourself, where are customers coming from? You know, how do we know that? Um, and, and what tools are we currently using that we're seeing be most effective in terms of why a company. Could consider hiring a fractional executive. Let's talk about some of the alternatives they have. So you could hire a full-time, you know, high level marketing leader, you'll probably spend months looking for this person. You'll have to pay them a six figure, multiple, six figure salary benefits and hope that it works out right Like that's, that's what that looks like, um, to get that level of experience in someone. Worked probably in a variety of industries, at a variety of companies and sort of seen this again and again. You can hire an agency, which I know that a lot of, um, a lot of companies out there do work with marketing agencies and, and that can be effective. But keep in mind that agencies tend to have expertise in what it is exactly that they do. Okay. They're pulling the levers on the back end of, of Google and Facebook, and they know how to optimize. They do not necessarily deeply understand your business objectives, and I've seen this go wrong time and time again, Eric. I'd be interested to hear, you know, your input on this, but there is. Very easily misalignment between what leadership thinks is happening and wants to happen and what the agency is actually executing to. And I've also unfortunately worked with agencies where, you know, even asking for something as basic as you know, what is your plan to optimize? What is your plan to test and learn? And there's nothing like strategic and methodical. that's there and, and that's a key piece of working with, with paid advertising is how am I going to improve this over time? Because you, that's why having the data through those platforms is so important. Um, so, so that's another option. And, and, or you're working maybe with like freelancers or contractors who can. Incredible, um, you know, resources to help with some execution. Like maybe you need a copywriter to help you write your website content. Once you have your strategy, maybe you need someone to help you design the, the display ads, something very tactical. That, again, supports the high level strategy. So what you get with, with a fractional leader is someone who has the strategic experience. They understand why it's important to have the full roadmap, to have the full understanding of what we're trying to do and how it supports the business, and can really, um, work among. The agencies, the leadership team, the other, you know, third party resources and also cross-functionally internally with the company to really make sure that everything is like, humming along in a way that makes sense, And where everyone is, is, like I mentioned before, building that momentum versus throwing things at the wall and, and being really, um, fragmented in what's happening.

Eric Dickmann: 28:22

Yeah, I think that's a good overview. That's a good way to put it. And look, you know, we as marketers, we work with. Freelancers and agency partners all the time, and, and they're critical to the things that we do, but oftentimes, you know, they're, they're packaging up services, and that's not necessarily a strategy that supports a strategy, but that in and of itself is not a strategy, and that's why working with a marketing professional, A fractional is such a great way to sort of manage those partner, those agency, those freelance relationships to get that strategy executed. Natalie, I know we're sort of running towards the end of our time here, but before we close out, I'd love it if you could just tell a little bit more about where people can find you, whether it's LinkedIn, on the web, if you have any offers that you wanna give to the audience. I'm gonna give you the floor to explain that.

Natalie Swan: 29:08

Yeah, absolutely. I am primarily on LinkedIn at Natalie b Swan. Um, I've. Currently have a hot pink bubble behind my profile Pick. So I'm pretty easy to find. But go ahead, connect with me there. Send me a message. Um, I'm always happy to to connect and meet you, and you can also find me online@nataliebswan.com and learn more about my services and business and any free offers I have there.

Eric Dickmann: 29:33

That's awesome. I really appreciate it. I love these kinds of discussions. I especially love talking about strategy with somebody who's passionate about it and has got such an interesting background like you do. Natalie, I really appreciate you being on the show today. I will make sure that everything you mentioned there, we've got linked up in the show notes so that people can find you. Thank you so much for your time.

Natalie Swan: 29:51

Absolutely Eric. Thank you so much for having me. Uh, this was such a pleasure,

Eric Dickmann: 29:55

Great. Thanks.