The Virtual CMO
The Virtual CMO podcast offers engaging discussions about marketing strategies and the impact of new technologies on marketing effectiveness. Hosted by Eric Dickmann, the founder of The Five Echelon Group and a fractional CMO, the podcast emphasizes the importance of developing strategic marketing plans and executing successful growth marketing initiatives. Each episode features interviews with industry thought leaders who share their insights and experiences. The show also explores new marketing automation platforms, AI-enabled tools, and other innovative technologies that can enhance marketing campaigns.
The Virtual CMO
The Power of Tribe-Building, Funnels, and Human Connection with Deirdre Tshien
In episode 70, host Eric Dickmann interviews Deirdre Tshien. Deirdre is the founder of Growth Boss, a leading mentorship program for e-commerce business owners wanting to scale to multiple- 6 and 7 figures using the power of tribe-building, funnels, and human connection. She is a serial entrepreneur, having founded and led 5 businesses across 3 industries in the last 7 years, and has navigated the entire spectrum of experiences and emotions (the good, the bad, and the ugly) that come with starting, running, and closing businesses. With Deirdre's hands-on experience in successfully growing her businesses to 7 figures, she now coaches e-commerce business owners on her secret sauce of using buyer psychology to make their offerings irresistibly contagious to their customers; creating an end-to-end sales funnel that automatically converts these customers; and then nurture them into a raving sales force.
Tshien's evolution into a Business Coach, Consultant, and Mentor was driven by a strong desire to pay it forward and help other e-commerce business owners take intelligent action towards building their million-dollar business.
For show notes and a list of resources mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://fiveechelon.com/power-tribe-building-funnels-human-connection-s5e4/
A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.
The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at:
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm your host, Eric Dickmann. In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business. Deidre. Welcome to The Virtual CMO Podcast. I'm so glad you could be here with us today.
Deirdre Tshien:Thanks so much for having me on Eric. We're going to have so much fun. I can
Eric Dickmann:could that too. It actually looks like fairly nice weather in the background there. Are you having a good day there?
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah, it was a little bit windy, like we could hear the wind coming through the window, but yeah, in New York we've hopefully turned around, turned the corner into spring. So the sun's out, it's shining yeah it's looking nice.
Eric Dickmann:You know with the crazy year that we've had you know just coming out of 2020, coming into 2021, I think everybody is so ready for spring and for just a change of pace, right?
Deirdre Tshien:Totally, totally. I think I'm ready for it as well. Like I'm going to be honest, I actually really enjoy winter here. So you can probably tell from my accent, I'm not from here. I am from, I'm from Australia, and which means that growing up I loved summer you know going to the beach doing all the Aussie things that you see, yeah, the barbecues and everything. As I've gotten older I actually really enjoyed the winter, I really is that an age thing? I don't know. I like the cold.
Eric Dickmann:Well there's something very nice about the cold too. It's refreshing, right? As long as it doesn't get to that point, you know? Where the snow is piled up on the side, you have to dig out your car, there's that sand and soot everywhere that makes it kind ugly. Yeah, that's no fun, you don't want that.
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah
Eric Dickmann:I'm excited for you to be on the show today because we're going to get into a topic that we've touched on a little bit before but we haven't really delved into. So, we're going to talk about this whole idea of funnels and really kind of creating a tribe and getting that sale. There are so many businesses that I think have created websites, they've put together contact forms, they think that they've got all the pieces and parts that they need, but they really haven't created that compelling offer to make them sort of make that final sale. And I know you started a business- The Growth Boss which by the way when I first Googled it it came up with marijuana sites, so I'm not going to get into that. Maybe you have a an alter ego out there somewhere, but tell the audience a little bit about your business and how you help entrepreneurs. Okay.
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah. So I, we specialize in I guess helping e-commerce businesses grow to their you know six multiple six seven figure business using the power of human connection, tribe building, and sales funnels. So all the great things that we're gonna be talking about, I totally geek out on, so we basically have, we offer coaching consulting services for e-commerce businesses and it's just been such a blast to work with some amazing entrepreneurs and help them in their journey.
Eric Dickmann:So let's kind of take this back Uh you know let's deconstruct it a little bit. I'm going to create an e-commerce business, I make widgets, you know, I make them in red white and blue. Other than that that's all you need to know to be able to purchase my widget So I've got a product page that explains a little bit about what the widget does, I've got the ability to add them to our shopping cart, and do a checkout. What else do I need? Why why why am I not making millions of dollars, and my own private Island of the Caribbean?
Deirdre Tshien:Wow what a loaded question. Okay, So there's so how do I okay. So I have a few frameworks that I feel like we'll add, but I feel like that'll go from a lot more than 30 minutes if I go through all of them. So I'll start with you know maybe some fundamental ones and you can kind of stop me
Eric Dickmann:That sounds great.Yeah, let's dig into a couple of those fundamentals.
Deirdre Tshien:There's kind of three, well there's more than three components, really but like the big three components in my mind is really about you have to find the traffic. So you have to actually get you know not only find where your people are, but actually like kind of you know insert yourself and say Hey, you know come check out the thing that I have, right? So, there's this whole traffic piece. There's also this whole like messaging, and I think that was kind of almost you know when you're saying Oh you know you need something compelling, like that comes down to not only what you're offering but also how you're messaging that because we can have the most compelling thing but unless we actually make it sound attractive for the people we're trying to sell to or the people we're trying to hook, they're never going to be compelled to come into your into your world. And then and then this is whole like how do we actually convert them, and I am you know my whole strategy is anchored in human connection, from a conversion perspective, but then and, you know human connection in conjunction with the technology that you're going to set up which has a lot to do with the funnels side of things. So um that's kind of you know in my mind, there's this you know there's those three, and then you can keep, you know, once you convert them, the part that I really also really love geeking out on is then how do you not only retain your customers, but have them become your raving sales force, and I don't mean from an affiliate or network marketing perspective, but just on like a social proof perspective. How do you create or generate this loyal tribe of advocates that will, without you having to even ask them, I mean yes you, you might want to ask them, but they will just go out and spread the word about you
Eric Dickmann:No, that's great. Keep going.
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah, so so I guess if we start from that the traffic side of things. And you can probably tell that what like all those pieces together start to form what I also call a funnel. Um so you know I know that funnel is kind of the buzz word, and it can get quite confusing for anyone who's completely new, because let me tell you Eric when I first like started learning about it, I was overwhelmed with you know all of these different like what people were talking about it, how they were all different, because I'm like but I thought that this person over here said that this was what a funnel meant but you're saying that. And so I think I just want to set the scene at funnels generally have different meanings. They do have different meanings. The way that I like to talk about them, how I see it, is in three ways. So the first is kind of like what I call a macro funnel. And this is when you just think about you've got top of the funnel, you've got middle of the funnel, you've got bottom of the funnel. And what that just means is top of the funnel is what I call the traffic side of it. So this is way, you you're getting people into your funnel, you know your ch they're all completely cold to you. Then you have the middle, where you're nurturing them, right. You're taking them through some kind of sales process, and then bottom of the funnel is when they finally convert, when they finally make the transaction with you So that's kind of what I call a micro funnel. Now within that, you kind of have, and this is where I get a little bit nerdy where you kind of go, you want to optimize so some people when they speak about funnels, it's all about optimization every step of the way, and we want to be really intentional with that because that's the only way that you're able to track at each point what's working and what's not working. And so this is and this comes back to sort of experimentation, putting things out there, and then seeing what's working and what's not working, and being able to make those micro changes inside your funnel to actually optimize it. So that's all based on data, that's all based on those kind of experimentation optimization principles. And then this kind of this other funnel aspect which is more so white like Russell Brunson and you know with click funnels and stuff like he's kind of popularized which is all about, How do you actually use funnels to not in sort of not necessarily in that might that macro wave I spoke about But more so how do you use funnels to actually create more value for to what you're offering, so that you're actually able to self fund your business and so for the way that he talks about funnels is you want to be able to hook people in with something compelling, but actually upsell them on the backend so that you're actually making more than you might be spending on for example, ads or you know to to get them in the first place. So it actually funds itself. I don't know if that makes sense.
Eric Dickmann:No, it does make sense And you know you've dropped a lot of value there I don't don't ever like to use the word value bomb on this podcast. That wasn;t value bomb, just to say. There's a lot there, and I think it's really important that we we dig into this a little bit more because I do think that there is a perception, a misperception in the marketplace that a funnel is just a thing. Oh I'm going to open up a business, I'm going to create some funnels. Well, a funnel is a tool in your business; its not a business in and of itself. still have to have something that you're selling, something that people actually want to buy. And so if we sort of rewind sort of all the way back to where you started there, finding that traffic,I think it's so important to understand who your buyer is, understanding the niche that you are serving, right? The target customer profile, so that the second piece is really developing the messaging at because if you find people and they come to your website to buy something, but you don't have messaging that explains your width and the three grade colors that have comes in, you're going to miss the the opportunity to actually take them further, right? So how do you work with clients to develop that messaging?
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah, okay. So let me talk about so I call it like content storytelling, and the, you know and the reason why is and this again is anchoring in human connection and really making not only you, but your customer the hero of your story because I think the thing that we miss out a lot especially when we're so in love with and look trust me, no judgment here, because I did this. When I launched my first business I was like, this is the best thing since sliced bread. Like everyone is going to want this thing, they just you know but And I didn't realize at the time that actually for them to even try it, I had to sell it to them. And to sell it to them, I had to message it in a way that made it compelling for them to want to try it in the first place. And so that's, and so I actually so I called this part of it like content storytelling because it's you It's it's all about, so there's your website as one part of your content but then there's all these other places that you're going to be putting content on, so whether that's your Instagram, whether that's on podcasts, whether that's you know on YouTube, like wherever it is that you're going to be on, you need to be creating content. And the way that you create content is all through storytelling. And this is again a part that a lot of us miss because we think well, we know that we have the best thing In the market. If I just talk about the features and the benefits, then that that's going to make it compelling, right? And that's actually not the case. No one cares. No one cares. No about the advantages and benefits. I'm going to be Yeah I'm going to betotally
Eric Dickmann:Just put that out there.
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah exactly, no one cares. What they care about is what it's going to do for them. Because again, we're human, sothere's nothing wrong in this. We are all egocentric. That's just what makes humans, humans. And so you have to tell the story of your product or the thing that you're selling in a way that makes your customer the hero, that makes them the focus, the center of all of this. And when I say story, I mean like on your sales page, on your in your content, all of it. Like they are the hero, and so you want to be able to paint the picture for them around how your product can help them whether that's a problem that you're solving for them or whether that's a goal or an Astro, whatever the result is that you're helping them get, you need to clearly paint that picture. Otherwise, they have to mentally do a lot of work to try to work that out themselves, right? Because if they just read features and benefits, then they have to do the mental, you know, gymnastics to basically be like, okay these features and benefits can help me in these way, and it's going to plug into my life in this way, and it's got you well and that's just like as humans again, we're lazy, we don't want to do that work.
Eric Dickmann:That's so true. You know an example that I can give that I think people could relate to, let's say you're selling a house. You could pound a sign in your front yard that said Open House Sunday. And you can hope that people are going to walk by or drive by, see that it's an open house, stop their car, come on in, and take a look at it. Or you could do what real estate professionals would do is that they would hire a photographer to come out, you would clean your house top to bottom, maybe you would stage it so that every room looks perfect, you would create all these amazing pictures that would basically try to convey to potential buyers what it would be like to live in this house, right, exactly. so you create this then you would put it online, you'd put on your real estate website, you'd put it in maybe some ads, you would put out flyers, you would do all of these things to attract your target buyers. Which open house is going to be more successful? The guy who just pounds a sign in his front yard saying open house on Sunday or the one who tried to create an environment so that that buyer could really picture themselves in that house?
Deirdre Tshien:Exactly. And tell that story for them, right? Tell that story about how You could actually imagine yourself living there, you know? Tell the story about how close the school is, so you know walking your kid there you know in 10 minutes or whatever to be back home in time to brew your morning coffee, and like tell that story because that is actually how you start to compel people to not only stop and care about it but then to actually want to convert and want to want to take the next step with you. So yeah,so that's that's kind of how I like to think about you know content and messaging, and things like that is all about storytelling. That's really what you're you're trying to do.
Eric Dickmann:No that's so true. We just finished up a Masterclass series on this podcast and brand storytelling, and creating those compelling messages was absolutely a key part of that. So let's say you've done that work, you've created some good messages, you built a story, now you've got to get to the part where you're starting to get people to want to buy, to convert. And this is really where you're starting to getting them into that buyer funnel or that that macro funnel that you talked about. What are some key elements of the conversion process?
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah. So there's four for an online business or for an e-commerce business has kind of two ways. So one is, for the people who are like fast movers, who can who are already compelled with your message, they don't you know, they kind of like they've I call them like fast twitch. They're just like, I don't I don't need any more convincing just give me the thing then also I mean you just want to reiterate what you have already kind of what you use to compel them on your sales page and just take them through that process, and that's kind of you know the South and then you know maybe on the back of that you want you might want to upsell them or cross all those to make that you know basket size bigger but for a lot of people, they need they they a lot of people especially if you're a new business, Me to know like and trust you first and so what how the way that I really like doing this is through by called the life conversion method and this is where you are actually showing up for your audience, and you are talking to, you're basically talking to mindset, skillset toolset for them, because they need that convincing, they need the kind of and this doesn't matter. Like I know that a lot of people are like, Oh but I'm not selling a high ticket, you know? item or whatever. But It's really funny because you know as again, as humans we agonize over every buying decision that we make.
Eric Dickmann:It's true, we do.
Deirdre Tshien:Right? Like you know sometimes I'm like, I'll be agonized its a$5 thing when It just makes no sense like, why it's$75? But you know it's because we want to have and Tony Robbins talks about this actually where it's kind of like this this fear of judgment that we have like either from ourselves or from other people that and when it's other people's generally loved ones like our spouses or whoever else that if we make the wrong decision, they're going to view us negatively in some way. So that's why we go through this whole buying buying decision process and so I really liked the light conversion method for this, because it actually helps you bring to life the thing that they're buying, and you do this through talking to mindset skillset toolset. And again,it's deliberately toolset last and toolset being your product, because you first have to cut to you know get over the hurdles of mindset and skillset, and so what this means is like how do you get someone into the frame of mind to need your thing because no one ever needs anything. I mean, you know, as long as they have the basics covered. You know, they have shelter, they have to have water. That's kind of the things that they need, and then everything apart from that, is just a want that gets converted into a need, because they've convinced themselves that they now need the thing.
Eric Dickmann:That's very true. Yeah.
Deirdre Tshien:And so your job in a way is to actually help facilitate that process. How do you manufacture or generate this need in them for what you want to sell? And the way that a really effective way of doing that is to talk to mindset which I like to think of how do you make someone who is symptom aware, be problem aware. So for example they might know that they're feeling some kind of pain. So let's say I don't know, for example, they're uninspired by their bare walls, right? And you know that's kind of the symptom, but they but you have to make them realize that actually the problem is because they don't have anything on those walls.
Eric Dickmann:Right, You have to reframe the problem.
Deirdre Tshien:Exactly, exactly. So you have to make them go from symptom where to problem is. So that's kind of like tackling the mindset part of it. And then you go into skillset which is then how do you get them from problem aware to solution aware? And this is really then and through this process you're also arming them with what they need to know to actually get the result that they're after. And so when you go through this process of going you know getting them from symptom aware all the way to solution aware, then it kind of naturally falls into Well I have the solution for you. Which becomes the tossed Everage it comes I call it the toolset, but it's like the product, is the thing that you're selling Being able to show up for your audience and talk them through that like doing it live, doing it face to face, giving them that human connection, giving them someone to talk to about it, giving them being able to answer questions like, that is one of the most effective ways that you can sell anything,really. So that's why I really liked the live conversion method to do a lot of your selling for people who need the nudging for the slower Twitch people who aren't just like ready to buy the thing.
Eric Dickmann:Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to the podcast. But first, are you ready to grow, scale, and take your marketing to the next level? If so, The Five Echelon Group's Virtual CMO consulting service may be a great fit for you. We can help build a strategic marketing plan for your business and manage its execution, step-by-step. We'll focus on areas like how to attract more leads. How to create compelling messaging that resonates with your ideal customers. How to strategically package and position your products and services. How to increase lead conversion, improve your margins, and scale your business. To find out more about our consulting offerings and schedule a consultation, go to fiveechelon.com and click on Services. Now back to the podcast. I think that's so true. You know, we've talked on the show many times about video, how powerful that can be because it does help establish that human connection, it allows you to explain things in in a more visual way, and build that emotional connection. So there are ways to do that, it just doesn't have to be a lot of text on a page to create that value. So you've created this connection. Now, they've got a want that that they're ready to purchase. So talk a little bit about this idea of upselling, cross-selling, and not just sort of letting them out the door with that one product, but maybe introducing them to some things that would be good complimentary products to you know raise total purchase price.
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah, definitely. And tAnd this is, I'm going to kind of borrow some of these concepts again from Russell Brunson, because, so his whole thing is like why he doesn't like websites, E-commerce web, traditional e-commerce websites, is because in his words it's like hitting a brick wall I like kind of come up and I totally get it because I get so overwhelmed getting onto um you know I almost like don't even shop anymore because I just can't you know. And I think this is a lot of them, a big mistake that a lot of e-commerce, new e-commerce business owners make is they're like I'm just going to send people to my home page or to my product page because they're gonna want to see all the things, they're going to want it,you know. And if they see all the things, then there's hopefully more chance that they're going to buy more things. And that's actually not how the human brain works Oh it might for some people, but for the majority of people, that's not how we how we work. We need to just be funneled, and this is again the final concept comes in. We need to be funneled to a particular place, we need to be focused in a particular way so that again because a confused mind says No, and so we want to take away all that confusion and just give people a simple decision to make which is do you want to buy this thing, this one thing? So that's so that's kind of the start of your funnel, and then off the back of that Um you know uh cross sell and upsell works in terms of what is and this is the way that I like to think about it anyway Um you know you do an offer bump or what we call an offer bump which is what is the then the next What is an additional thing that can help the person get the result quicker get a result quicker that they're looking for So that's what I call the offer Bump And then you can add on on an upsell a one time offer which is and then what so once they've used your product to get this initial result then what will they need to get the next result And that's what you can actually then upsell them on So there's actually two step process that I like to take people through which is um you know a bit of a cross sell So what is what can what else can you sell them that can help them make get the result quicker And then the upsell which is what is that next step What is the next thing that they could be aspiring Like what's the next result that they could be getting that you can be helping them with at that time And then painting that picture really clearly for them at that point and so that's kind of how that whole upsell cross-sell funnel works and so you know click funnels is awesome to do this There's also we have clients who are on Shopify and there are funnel plugins can also help with Shopify and so you know the more that you can actually do this the more effect the more seamless the process is for the customer but then also the the the more you know value that you get from from a customer's purchase and so that's one part of it It's doing it at the point of sale and there's actually a really huge missed opportunity for a lot of people that they where the confirmation email that goes out Is actually a really big B it's one of the biggest it's one of the most opened emails that you can have as an e-commerce brand And so that is also another great great opportunity for you to then cross sell up sell again to be like Hey you know if you wanted to add this thing we can it's free shipping We'll just ship it with what you just purchased and make it really easy for them to say yes as long as obviously operationally you can fulfill that in the back Um but you know that is such a missed opportunity that a lot of people don't take advantage off because they kind of think well a confirmation email is just a transactional it's just Oh whatever email but it's actually The ha It's an email with a highest open rate So if you can get something in there then that's where you want to be getting it in
Eric Dickmann:Well you know, earlier you talked about I think it was something Tony Robbins said about this idea of making purchase and the judgment that goes with it. Once that mindset has shifted and now you're saying, Okay, I'm giving myself permission to make this purchase. It doesn't take that much more to make an additional purchase or a bump up to the next brand. You know people who bought this also bought this or this might be the next product that you would use if you bought that, sometimes it's two or three levels deep, but if you can do it in such a way where you're adding value, you buy these things together, it's 20% off or 30% off. Somehow you're creating more value. You've already passed that point of resistance to making the purchase at all, its not that much harder to make it bigger, where if you came back in a month or two months, now you have to overcome that whole objection cycle again around making a purchase.
Deirdre Tshien:Totally, totally agree with that. And they're excited, right. They just made the purchase because they've overcome that mental hurdle and all the objections that they had. So they're excited. So, Hey, just leverage that excitement that they have, and also because you know that you can be adding value to what it is that they've just bought, so, yeah, go for it. That's when you have to go for it.
Eric Dickmann:Well, I love the point that you made too about not taking people to a homepage where they can just see everything. But really the purpose of having a number of different funnels and the reason that, you know, something like click funnels or I use Thrive Themes, or whatever the tool that you may using to create these. The reason that they have very simple ways to create multiple funnels is so that you can focus in on that specific product area and remove all that distraction. You know, as a guy, there's nothing worse than being taken to the Gap website or Banana Republic or J.Crew, and the first thing that you see is women's dresses. You know, I'm sorry, I'm not going to be in the market for a woman's dress. So why are you taking me there? It's almost offensive. I don't want to have to go look for it. It makes me immediately feel like I'm in the wrong place. And I think if you can sort of match the mentality or moment in time that the potential customer is in, you're so much further ahead than having them try to navigate, because you risk turning them off.
Deirdre Tshien:Totally. Yeah. 100% agree. And you know, I, and I think that's why for the longest time, I it's really, yeah, it's actually really funny because one of the businesses that I was exploring was a fashion take business. Because of that exact issue, because the fact that every time I went onto a fashion website out, like a clothing website, I would just be so overwhelmed by everything that was there. That in the end, I just actually didn't even shop. I just do. I just, I just didn't do it. And so like, I was like, okay, well, surely I'm not the only one who is having this problem. And so we actually we decided not to proceed with it, but we actually explored this whole fashion technology ID, because of that issue. I think it's kind of like if that is actually a problem and we actually validated that problem, then I think that it's actually really easy for, and, and especially in your business, e-commerce business owners to solve for that problem themselves and make it really, really easy for people to just say, Yes. Cause that's ultimately what you want them to do, you just want them, you want them to say yes. Because once they're in your world, once they've tried you, and they S they know how awesome you are, they're going to keep coming back. And as long as you can keep connecting with them, again, coming back to human connection, as long as you can keep showing up for them and adding value to them, then they're going to keep saying Yes. So you at least just need that first Yes, make it really easy for them, and then they'll keep coming back.
Eric Dickmann:I couldn't agree more. You make it simple and you make it seem as if you really understand them as a customer. You really understand what their wants and needs are, and then present the information that matches that; that builds that trust. And that is removing friction. I love to talk about removing friction in the buying process. And the more that friction that you can get rid of and make it seem like, Yeah, as a customer, I want to do business with you. The better off you'll be. This is great, this is really good information. And I had the privilege of being on your podcast not long ago, so it's great to have you here. I would love it if we could just wrap things up here and for you to share with the audience, number one, where they can find your podcasts, but also where they can find you online if they wanted to explore more about some of these methodologies.
Deirdre Tshien:Yeah, for sure. So definitely check out my podcast. It's called the, themakingitpodcast.com. That's the website. And as Eric said, he's been a guest, so you'll be able to check out his episode as well. And if you want to find out about my entire strategy, I actually hold each month. I do a free three-day challenge, it's called the Cold to Converted Challenge.. And you can sign up for that at www.thegrowthboss.com/challenge. I would so love to see you there. It happens in my Facebook group. And yeah, we have a lot of fun. So come join it.
Eric Dickmann:That's great. I know you put out a lot of great content and you're on multiple channels, so that's great helping people on Facebook and through your podcast. I will make sure that we have all of that linked up in the show notes, so that people can find you. But I really appreciate your time today and your value bombs. We'll see if we edit that out of the final version, but the value bombs that you dropped.
Deirdre Tshien:I think you have to add a hashtag to that#valuebomb.
Eric Dickmann:I think so, I think so. We're going to have to add that in here. No, but it was great. I think you shared a lot of good insights for the audience and I certainly appreciate your time today.
Deirdre Tshien:Thank you so much, Eric.
Eric Dickmann:Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. For more episodes, go to fiveechelon.com/podcast to subscribe through your podcast player of choice. And if you'd like to develop consistent lead flow and a highly effective marketing strategy, visit fiveechelon.com to learn more about our Virtual CMO consulting services.
