The Virtual CMO
The Virtual CMO podcast offers engaging discussions about marketing strategies and the impact of new technologies on marketing effectiveness. Hosted by Eric Dickmann, the founder of The Five Echelon Group and a fractional CMO, the podcast emphasizes the importance of developing strategic marketing plans and executing successful growth marketing initiatives. Each episode features interviews with industry thought leaders who share their insights and experiences. The show also explores new marketing automation platforms, AI-enabled tools, and other innovative technologies that can enhance marketing campaigns.
The Virtual CMO
How to Grab People’s Attention with Lee Wochner
In episode 104, host Eric Dickmann interviews Lee Wochner. Lee is highly regarded as a strategic leader and facilitator able to help people grow and change. With more than 25 years of organizational consulting both independently and with Counterintuity, Lee has worked with non-profits, government agencies, Fortune 500 companies, and small businesses.
Counterintuity is a full-service marketing agency headquartered in Los Angeles. Since 2007, Counterintuity’s propulsive marketing approach has helped catapult hundreds of small businesses and nonprofits throughout California.
Lee holds a BA in Literature and Language from Stockton University and a Masters in professional writing from the University of Southern California, where he taught graduate writing for 10 years.
He is also a frequent guest speaker and is recognized by the State of California as a “California Thinker.”
For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit:
https://fiveechelon.com/how-grab-peoples-attention-s7ep4/
A fractional CMO can help build out a comprehensive marketing strategy and execute targeted campaigns designed to increase awareness and generate demand for your business...without the expense of a full-time hire.
The Five Echelon Group - Fractional CMO and strategic marketing advisory services designed for SMBs looking to grow. Learn more at:
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm your host, Eric Dickmann. In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business. Hey Lee, welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm so glad he could join us today.
Lee Wochner:Eric, it's great to be here with you. Thanks for having me.
Eric Dickmann:You know, we're recording this in August. Good grief I can't believe this summer has gone by so quickly. But you know, we live in a time where there is just so much going on and we're going to get a chance to talk about really how you get people's attention. And I think this is such a relevant topic for anybody who's in marketing anybody's business, because really we're trying to get people's attention or trying to get the right people's attention, and it's just such a relevant and timely topic. How did you sort of get started with the agency?
Lee Wochner:Well, that's an interesting question. So my background is principally as a writer. I have a Master's in Professional Writing from University of Southern California. But I was also raised in a family of entrepreneurs. And so my father had a business, a couple of businesses. My grandfather, my brother, my brother-in-law, et cetera. And so although I was writing and directing sometimes for clients, I'm also a stage director. I started to get pulled into doing some marketing and then my number one vendor became a close friend and a trusted ally. We merged our companies and she has a background in marketing and advertising. So we've been doing this together. We're in our 14th year and she's terrific, she's really smart, and every day is a joy.
Eric Dickmann:Oh, that's so great. When you can partner with somebody and you each bring something unique to the business. And I love that you have that creative side too. Do you still write on your own? Do you write books or plays, or anything like that?
Lee Wochner:Well, I'm a playwright and I had a play up. So I've been getting produced. My first play produced was when I was in high school at age 14. And I had a play produced in June on Zoom. It was written for Zoom, it ran on Zoom, and the interesting thing Eric was I've had productions around the country and other countries before, but I've never had a simultaneous international production. And so people tuned in from across Europe, the UK, across the United States, all at the same time to watch the show. And it was like, this is kind of cool because you know in the theater you have one location and people have to come to, and Zoom of course can be all over the world simultaneously. And that was a unique experience.
Eric Dickmann:I'm curious, how did you get the word out about such a unique kind of production? Cause that's not even something I would think to look for. How did you publicize it and get people interested?
Lee Wochner:Yeah.
Lee Wochner:Twitter, certainly my blog, notifying everybody I knew around the world having the cast and crew do the same thing. Same as you would market almost anything digitally anymore, except we didn't do an ad spend.
Eric Dickmann:Interesting, You know, I think you talk about a play or something, I think about the days of the old west, right? Where you had a saloon and a theater or whatnot, and somebody was coming to town, and so they'd slap up a poster on the wall and you know, people would walk by and say, oh, I've got to go this Friday because so-and-so is coming to town to sell their hair tonic or whatever it might be, you know? We've come a long way, know? From a poster on the wall to having to deal with all of these different channels, to be able to get the word out. When you sort of look at where you started the business and where you are today, has it gotten more complex? Has it gotten easier? What do you see as the state of things today?
Lee Wochner:I think the state of things is that you have enormous opportunity because now you can connect with people around the globe or around the corner, depending on what your targeting is, more easily than ever before, right? My first job at age 14, again, I worked at a daily newspaper and I still have a soft spot for daily newspapers. But think about how that used to work. That you would buy a full-page ad for$60,000. It was irrelevant to most of the people reading the newspaper, so right away there went a whole bunch of your ad spend, right? And if you're buying classified ads, which is what really sustained newspapers for decades, you had to anticipate that people were going to sit there and pick through all the classified ads to find what was relevant to them. And most of it wasn't relevant to them. And now we flipped the funnel and we go, here's what we're putting out, here's who it's right for, and here's how we identify them, and try to get them to see those ads where they are because now all the digital advertising is targeted. And so when you take that perspective and you apply that to 2021, I just think it's better. Obviously it's better. it's more interesting. In terms of consumer perspective, I'm not inundated with the draws that doesn't apply to me, right? I don't get a whole bunch of junk mail anymore. I don't get all this other stuff. And instead, what I get is I get advertising that has correctly identified me as the possible consumer.
Eric Dickmann:That's interesting too and timely because certainly Apple has been in the news quite a bit with some of their privacy policies IOS, and you know, Facebook has been kind of upset about that because of how it changed their model a little bit. But that's not really going away. People will continue to figure out ways to find that target audience. Have you seen any real impacts of that yet in business and your client spend?
Lee Wochner:Well, the, the landscape is constantly shifting, right? And there's a difference between organic and paid. And so we'll see what happens. What we don't realize is that we're still in the early days of the internet. And I'll take you back to when I was in high school and I had an IBM TRS 80 level 2, a Trash 80.
Eric Dickmann:A Trash 80, yep.
Lee Wochner:first, A first computer. And here's how you use to load memory into it. If you're going to play a game or something, it came with a cassette recorder, you had to buy it separately, a cassette player. And you would load in a tape and you would type B load for binary load and then I would go to school. And I would come home for lunch, and it would finally stop loading that cassette, and I flip it over and type B load for the other side and then go back to school. So it would take you know, six hours to load whatever the heck it was loading, and then you would get home and you would play whatever game. And then you would lose in 10 minutes and then you'd have to start all over. And I was on BBS is at the time, but bulletin board services, nobody remembers that BBS is. So, meanwhile, Eric here in August at 21, you and I are in this space together, this virtual space. We are at the universe at the same time and we're convening over the internet.
Eric Dickmann:Yes.
Lee Wochner:And because we're wired to adapt, we take it for granted. We, don't really have the appreciation for the tools we have, and what you and I both know, certainly, because look what you're doing here with this podcast, you and I both know that the sky's the limit as far as what we can do with these things.
Eric Dickmann:Absolutely. I mean the amount of change, the amount of opportunity that we have, especially in marketing is incredible. You know, you mentioned junk mail, you know things that would come to your mailbox. I think we've all seen you know just the decrease in spending over COVID in general. But it's kinda dried up. I just don't get the same amount of offers. You know, credit card offers used to come almost daily. That kind of stuff has dried up the real estate ads that used to come all the time, a lot of that is dried up. And because people are realizing that these digital tools are so impactful and they can reach the right audience where that, like you said, spending$60,000 on a newspaper ad to blanket everybody, including a lot of people that aren't interested in your message at all.
Lee Wochner:Yeah. And look at how look at how slowly things used to be in the quote unquote good old days. So I grew up in a very rural area. I read a lot of comic books, I still read a lot of comic books. And the way we comic book fans would meet each other was a letters page and the letters page would print your name and your address. And I had some letters printed and when I would see somebody else where I was, I would write to them and we would get to meet, right? Well, now I have friends principally around, I know people all around the world, but I have a bunch of friends in the UK and in Europe because of our mutual appreciation of what I think is the world's greatest rock and roll band, that's pear ooVoo. And so now we've formed these real friendships because we underst we get it, right?
Eric Dickmann:Yeah.
Lee Wochner:We're able to find each other and connect around the shared interest. That applies to marketing, that applies to anything you're trying to do if you're trying to improve the world. I have a client, God bless them in New York right now, who they're rushing a whole bunch of reliefs to Haiti, right? So partly how they're able to do that is because we have the internet.So you know, the internet has a lot of potential for us and we have some problems we need to address here to improve life on this planet over the next 30 years. And I think we have the tools to do it.
Eric Dickmann:We absolutely do. And you know on this podcast, we talk a lot about the importance of identifying your niche, that group of people that you relate to. So you've got your comic book fans, your rock and roll fans, but as a business too, right, we've got to figure out what is the right niche for us to go after. And I know with your agency with Counterintuity, you specifically go after nonprofits and governmental agencies, if I understand that correctly. Explain to me a little bit about why you focused in on that niche versus just helping any business under the sun.
Lee Wochner:So we do have other sorts of businesses in our client portfolio. But you are correct. We principally work with nonprofits and government agencies. My partner and I are interested in the social good, trying to make a positive impact on the world around us. And we bring a lot of expertise. I mean, throughout the history of this company and even before we've both worked in nonprofit, we both headed nonprofits. I currently sit on three boards. And so we bring a lot of expertise to that. And then there is a partnership between government agencies and nonprofits. I remember many years ago when the first George Bush was president and he talked about the thousand points of light, what he was really talking about was social organizations and nonprofits who could work with the government to make positive change. And I think he was right about that. And so whether it's here in Los Angeles with people we work with or the many clients we have across the country and in New York who were in nonprofit, we bring a lot of expertise, a lot of insight, and they're trying to impact positive change and it's thrilling to work with them. So the reason we did that is it's part of our brand positioning, but also it's where we think we bring a lot of expertise.
Eric Dickmann:And what I really love about what you said there is, you know, when companies are trying to figure out what their niche is, they have to look at themselves and say, what do we authentically stand for? What do we believe? What are our values? And then don't we want to sort of serve people who share that common set of values, that common set of interests, that sounds like exactly what you've done in terms of the clients that you're serving.
Lee Wochner:So our core values posted on the walls here at the office. I'm here at our office today. There are four of us and we have staggered work shifts as everybody does during COVID, right? But there are four of us in the office today. When you walk in, you'll see our core values, which are, creative, strategic, driven, precise, heartfelt, and collaborative
Eric Dickmann:Yeah.
Lee Wochner:And they're also on our website. And so we are collaborative people, we want to work with other good partners. And it's interesting to me that I'm a theater person and not, let's say a novelist, right? Novelists work by themselves. I'm not guy. Creativity, you should bring to problem solving and to having fun, and making things interesting so they stand out. You obviously want to be strategic. You want to be driven towards success and manifesting the change that you can do. It has to be precise, meaning you got it right. And it has to be heartfelt, it has to come from a good place. And those are our core values. And it's interesting, and you'll relate to this. When, we get a lead, when someone comes to us, of course we're doing a mutual assessment.
Eric Dickmann:Hmm.
Lee Wochner:They're trying to figure out if we're the right fit for them and we're trying to figure out if they're the right fit for us.
Eric Dickmann:That's so important, right? I think a lot of companies, especially younger stage companies, when they first enter into the market, you know, any lead is a good lead, right? We'll take business wherever we can get it. And you can quickly be in a position where you're doing all these things, supporting all of these customers, that aren't really a good fit for either your product or service, or the values of your company. And unless you sort of start to niche down and say, okay, thanks for coming to us, but you're probably not the right fit for us. You could end up going down a lot of tangents.
Lee Wochner:Right. And while doing that, you simultaneously have to be careful not to be no oriented. You really want to be open to opportunity. And the ways that people get stuck is procrastination comes from not knowing what to do. That's one way to get stuck. And then the other thing is to constantly find yourself running down rabbit holes that you really didn't belong in. So it's good to know who you are, what you do, who you do it for, and then from there to embrace the opportunity, to open up optionality, and to inspire creativity. And if you can do those things, everything seems possible.
Eric Dickmann:Yeah. And I'm sure if you're working with nonprofits and governmental agencies, there's a lot that you have to factor in in terms of the current climate that we're living in, right? There's a lot of political upheaval, there's a lot of social change, environmental issues that are going on. And I'm sure many of these organizations are very concerned about how they fit into all of that. Do you find that that's really an essential part of how you develop the marketing strategies, is authentic to these various social issues and causes?
Lee Wochner:Well, authenticity is a given. You have to be authentic. Anybody who thinks they can hide their identity in the internet age is fooling themselves. Um, and so while authenticity is a given, we always make sure that we understand what's authentic. And so we start with a client,we'll challenge all the assumptions in a really friendly, upbeat way. But we have a process that starts with asking great, reportorial questions. who, what, where, how,
Eric Dickmann:Yeah.
Lee Wochner:Who are you? What do you do? How do you do it? When do you do it? Who do you do it for? How do you do it? All of those things. And interestingly, you know, you get into positioning, right? Developing a positioning statement. Here's who this organization is and here's who it does it for. And you get to that by impaneling people and having this conversation, a free floating conversation that is actually grounded a process.And what you find is there was already a lot of consensus in the room, but they've never expressed it. They hadn't shared the consensus. And so our job in a way is to kind of draw out the facts, make sure that they see their participation in those facts, put them up on the wall, whether it's in person or virtual. And then they go, Yeah. that is us. That's how you've captured us. And so it look, Eric, I mean looking at you, I can see elements of your identity, right? And looking at me, you can see elements of my identity. So we're already expressing something. The better you can know, who you are, what you represent, what you want to do, et cetera, and put it out there, the better overall, because people can compete with you, but they can't be you.
Eric Dickmann:Yeah.
Lee Wochner:Everyone is and every organization is unique. Getting to that core identity is the heart of your branding and your branding is the heart of your marketing.
Eric Dickmann:Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to the podcast. But first, are you ready to grow, scale, and take your marketing to the next level? If so, The Five Echelon Group's Virtual CMO consulting service may be a great fit for you. We can help build a strategic marketing plan for your business and manage its execution, step-by-step. We'll focus on areas like how to attract more leads. How to create compelling messaging that resonates with your ideal customers. How to strategically package and position your products and services. How to increase lead conversion, improve your margins, and scale your business. To find out more about our consulting offerings and schedule a consultation, go to fiveechelon.com and click on Services. Now back to the podcast. You know, back in the day, early in my career, we used to do things called JAD sessions, joint application design. Which was basically a glorified whiteboard session where you'd sit down and try to get to a common understanding. In this case, it was about a software process design. And it reminds me very much of what you were just describing because oftentimes enter a room thinking that they're on the same page, thinking that they're all sort of marching to the same drummer, if you will. But then when you sort of get everybody's unique flavor or take on that, you find that there are some fairly significant differences.
Lee Wochner:Yeah. Look, coffee is coffee, and yet Starbucks is incredibly successful. Starbucks isn't really about the coffee, I don't even like their coffee. Starbucks is about the experience. And they keyed into that by going to Italy and seeing what that experience was like, right? And so the more that you're thoughtful about this and take some time and invest in this, I think it's better for you rather than trying to be things you aren't. The Hyundai buyer and the Porsche buyer are very different people, right? Stop trying to sell a Hyundai to a guy who wants a Porsche and vice versa.
Eric Dickmann:I'm interested. I know you have for-profit clients as well. But I think that there are many businesses that shy away from servicing the not-for-profit space or government entities. They think, well, these guys don't have any money. It's very complicated, procurement is difficult. But that's not necessarily true, right? There a lot of within this space. How would you contrast sort of working in that space versus working in the for-profit world? you just share, what do you think some of the trade-offs are and negative?
Lee Wochner:Sure. So the first thing that I think about with nonprofits is there's incredibly, generally there's incredibly good intention there. So I ran the AIDS marathon in 2008 in Amsterdam. I'm not a marathoner by nature, and that was my first and last one. But I completed. And you know, so you get to train for 10 weeks volunteering. And what I quickly learned was evildoers don't sign up to raise money, to fight AIDS. So
Eric Dickmann:Goodbye.
Lee Wochner:you know they're good people, right? And so when you're nonprofit, you're working with a nonprofit board, the leadership and the board, and what you find out is the board they're all volunteers. And the leadership and the staff have all made a degree of sacrifice because they believe in that mission. And so you really honor that. The downside is I don't think a terrific downside, I'd rather not work with committees.
Eric Dickmann:Yeah.
Lee Wochner:Because its hard to get a decision we
Eric Dickmann:Sure
Lee Wochner:Always ask for one point of contact from any sort of client. But you know, I I'm well aware that with nonprofits, there's more of a committee system because that's what brought them together to, to do that sort of work to begin with. And on the for-profit side, um, obviously there's more of a profit incentive as well, but look, the for-profit people are trying to do things too, right? I mean Tom's shoes, how many shoes have they distributed around the world to people who couldn't afford shoes? So you know, sure there are trade offs and government agencies I mean, you know, people rail against the government and my response is, do you like your streets being paved to firefighters? Do you like the utility bill? I mean you know, do you like to meet inspectors? I mean it's ludicrous to attack the government just because it's the government. When actually you should ask yourself, what is it doing well and what could it do better, and how can we help it do better where it could do better?
Eric Dickmann:Hmm. Yeah, you know I've had experience working with both for-profits and not-for-profits as well, and their unique challenges with each of them. But there is something like you said to non-profits mission that you sort of they've laid their cards on the table in a way you sort of know what they're going after. You know, one of the things that I find so interesting, especially in space is there's a real appetite for creativity. And I find that so many nonprofits there, you know, we started this podcast talking about all the noise that's out there in the marketplace. And obviously a lot of not-for-profits are searching for donations. They're trying raise money, but there's a lot of competition for that that's out there, They're trying to do something for a cause. And a lot creativity to stand out amongst all this noise. Is that one of the things that you enjoy about working with these not-for-profits is just the level of creativity that you can bring to the table.
Lee Wochner:100%. I'll give you anan example. We have a client, they started as a graffiti abatement program in Los Angeles. That's how they started. had a little graffiti abatement program years ago. from that they've grown into this truly impressive nonprofit that helps get some people off the street or out of no employment or low employment, get them some education, get them housing, and welcome them into the marketplace, and help them lead them onto a path of success. It's incredible. And during COVID they had to ask ourselves, gee, how is this working? Because our training centers, where we train them are now closed. And so what they did was they got them all Chromebooks or some other access to the internet
Eric Dickmann:Oh wow.
Lee Wochner:so they could work from wherever work virtually. And so they were creative in their problem solving. And so one of the things we work with them on, we're redoing their website right now and we do their annual reports. And it may not sound like a lot, but what I know is as someone who sits on boards myself, when you get that annual report, the likelihood that anybody's going to read through all of it is slim. Right. So you'd better grab their attention visually and with the writing, and then you'd better make the key points. And the key point is that thing that you donated to us to do, we did it and here was the impact on people's lives. And so every year in working with this group, I get to talk to them about what's the real story of what you did last year, and then how can we present that the best? And so last year, the concept that we came up with was, I play games and my three kids play games of course. My PS4 I think is maybe the best piece of technology ever invented,
Eric Dickmann:Oh wow.
Lee Wochner:I love PlayStation. I used on X-Box, now I'm on PlayStation, I love it. Um, And so what we came up with is, was, wow. you got funding for this. And you did that, and you got funding for this and you did this. And in every one, they achieved something. And I said you know, when you play a video game, they'll say achievement unlocked and you get a little trophy. What if we write and design this entire thing because you're kind of youth oriented to show that achievements were unlocked throughout the year thanks to this funding. And so that wound up being the whole writing and design aspect of the annual report and the results. So every year we come up with a concept and the results have been terrific for them. And I couldn't be prouder to play a little role in working with them.
Eric Dickmann:You know, I think one of the dangers of marketing and this is true in many areas of business, but I've seen it firsthand in marketing is that we can get sort of stuck in a cycle, right? There are things that happen at certain points in the year. Okay, we've got to produce the annual report at this time. You know, maybe we have an annual fundraising dinner at this time, or you know, there's a trade event that we have to go to. And people can get very much into kind of this rinse and repeat cycle where creativity really isn't there. They're just doing some version of what they did last year, maybe you know, with some minor change and the fun and the power of marketing is really stretching those creative muscles, right? And trying to do things different to really stand out. You have to kind of guard against that rinse and repeat mentality.
Lee Wochner:Absolutely so. And the reason for that of course is it's your brain helping you save time, right? Your brain writes neural pathways that are time savers. The problem with that is the time-saver for you is deadening in the marketplace. Nobody notices it anymore. So things have to be fresh constantly. And that's one of the reasons that we've always said that our marketing is made fresh because even if we did it for you last year, whatever we're doing this year is going to be different. It's gotta be different. The market place changes constantly. I mean, just to give you the obvious point, right? Right now on my laptop and my laptop can serve as a phone. I'll have Facebook meetings with people here. Here's another phone of mine, this is my iPhone. There's a phone on my desk that I guess I occasionally use. I finally talked to my wife into, can we cancel the landline at home? No one's using it. We're just getting spam calls. But I remember I have that demographic. I can remember dial phones and you can have any sort of phone as long as it's black and my three siblings and I pitched in about my mom, a new phone in the seventies, you could buy a phone, that felt really strange. And when it arrived and had a cork board and the phone went inside along with phone books and it went on the wall and it looked rectangular over like, what s this? And so the pace of change has just gotten faster and faster, and you do have to stop and take note of how things have changed because otherwise you just slip right into that groove of same old, same old.
Eric Dickmann:Oh, yeah, I see it with companies and marketing spend, you know maybe they do some keyword spending. And you know, it's just a budget that happens every month without really taking the time to analyze it and see what's working or you know, they have landing pages and they never really looked to see what the conversion rates are. Because especially the larger the organization, the more different tactics that they're running, it can be easy to say, okay, that was yesterday's project, now I got to move on to today's project, and never sorta go back and revisit it. But there's so much power and understanding your data and figuring out ways that you can enhance and improve, and be creative with it.
Lee Wochner:Well, everyday, you and I are somehow able to pull a different shirt out of the closet, right? we don't know we always put the same shirt on or the same sort of shirt.
Eric Dickmann:That's right.
Lee Wochner:Why don't we invest 5, 10 minutes to see how the landing page is doing, right? Wouldn't it be better to take a look at it and go, oh, it was great last Tuesday, but now it's dropping off. I should think about how to improve this.
Eric Dickmann:It's It's amazing how many companies have broken web pages or contact forms and, you know, they just haven't gone to check recently and you know, they wonder why they're not getting a whole lot of conversions, and it's because something is broken. Just little things like that. But I really love the focus on creativity, I love sort of what you're doing in the marketplace to there. Do you have any exciting campaigns that you're working on right now as we just sort of wrap up the interview that you could share with us?
Lee Wochner:Well, we did an acquisition a couple of months ago, so we're pretty excited to have bought the website development and application development business of an agency in New York. So we picked up 16 new clients, and we're very with them on all sorts of things. And so that's driving my excitement on that level and I'm going to go back to New York. I'll be back there in three weeks for some client meetings. So we're located in Burbank, California, as I mentioned, and we saw firsthand the impact of COVID on the restaurants. So the campaign that excites me the most at the time, and as you'll hear, it's a partnership between a nonprofit, a government agency, and my company, we're doing a restaurant campaign. conjunction with the City of Burbank and the Burbank Chamber of Commerce to support the restaurants here in Burbank. So we've done a whole bunch of social, we continued to do social, we're running contests, we stood up landing pages, we have partners once a month there's drawings for like really cool prizes, like major sports tickets to Staple Center, hotel stays, all sorts meals, and we know that it's impactful because we can see the web traffic and all the stats, and then we're watching people post on social, all of their interactions at the local restaurants. We know the campaign is working really well and it makes me feel like, Oh, good, we did something to support the restaurants because they know they took it on the chin.
Eric Dickmann:Oh, that's really exciting. That sounds like a fun campaign and you know, social media can be so rewarding when the campaigns work well and you get people to repost content or you get some influencers who will share your content. It's fun, but it's complicated too. So that's exciting to hear that that's working well. You know, before we go, I just love it if you could share with the folks where they can find out more about you personally, where they can find out more about Counterintuity, if they want to get in touch and talk with you.
Lee Wochner:So you go to counterintuity.com. You'll see a whole bunch of stuff about us, work samples, case studies. If you google CounterIntuity or Google me, you'll get the Counterintuitive blog. We have a white paper on our website by the way, about how to get somebody's attention in four seconds, which is valuable information for 2021. And I'm eager to hear from you, find me on LinkedIn, ask me some questions, tell me what you think. We are great partners and we'd love to meet you.
Eric Dickmann:Hey, that's awesome. I'll make sure that we have all that linked up in the show notes so that people can find you. Love your mission, love your authenticity. It sounds like you're doing some really exciting things. Congratulations on the acquisition. Now, you're truly a, what do you call bi-coastal? You're just back and forth all the time.
Lee Wochner:Yep, and it's great. I grew up in Southern New Jersey, I love New York. It's thrilling to me to be more invested in New York.
Eric Dickmann:Well, that's awesome. Well, congratulations again. Lee, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you being a guest on the show.
Lee Wochner:Eric, it's been a real pleasure. And hats off to you for all of your incredible producing capability with this. You've really done a great job.
Eric Dickmann:Hey, thanks so much. I really do appreciate that. Thanks again.
Lee Wochner:Thank you.
Eric Dickmann:Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. For more episodes, go to fiveechelon.com/podcast to subscribe through your podcast player of choice. And if you'd like to develop consistent lead flow and a highly effective marketing strategy, visit fiveechelon.com to learn more about our Virtual CMO consulting services.
